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Montevideo, March 26th 2019 - 02:49 UTC

Lula's party preparing Plan B: a united left front for October elections

Thursday, April 19th 2018 - 08:52 UTC
Full article 39 comments

The most likely political heir to jailed former President Lula da Silva insists the leftist leader is still the Workers Party’s candidate for the October elections, but he is preparing to step into the role. Fernando Haddad told the Brazilian media that he was talking with other left-wing parties about forging a united leftist front for the elections if Lula is barred from running by a corruption conviction. Read full article


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  • Jack Bauer

    “Lula has given his blessing to Haddad to be his emissary in talks with other leftist leaders”.

    Who does this a.hole think he is, to give his “blessing” ? is he comparing himself to God ?

    Regarding the left presenting a united front, sounds easier said than done : all the left and communist parties (PC do B, Solidariedade, PSB, PSOL) have already appointed their pre-candidates....will be interesting to see if these radicals are prepared to give up their personal ambitions for their common goal.

    Apr 19th, 2018 - 05:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • :o))

    While PT's Plan-B is underway:

    You reap what you sow:
    “Brazil's army chief warns of graft threat to democracy”:

    Apr 20th, 2018 - 10:42 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Enrique Massot

    Look at Jack's anger at a potential PT candidate who could replace Lula in the October presidential election.

    ”Who does (Lula) think he is, to give his 'blessing'?,“ Jack fumes, inserting an insult.

    And so Jack's real political leanings are thrown in the open. He has been trying to appear as a white knight taken aback by ”corruption,” but he in fact speaks for the dark backward realm of Brazilian politics, trying to normalize Lula's proscription.

    Lula is welcome to give his blessing to whoever the heck he wants, Jack--political dwarves can't but yap in displeasure.

    Apr 21st, 2018 - 12:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Wow, what's with all the dramatics? JB, it's just an expression and means nothing of the sort. EM, Jack has never hidden his 'real political leanings', but he's not trying to normalise anything. Don't you understand that he believes Lula is guilty?

    Speaking of yapping in displeasure, would you prefer it if he and other opponents of Lula sang a rude song about Lula's mother instead?

    Apr 21st, 2018 - 08:48 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    “From Janitor to Chief Justice: Could Joaquim Barbosa be Brazil’s Next President?”:

    If what they publicise about him is true AND if he really gets elected as a president; there won't be any harm in taking the masses seriously [for the FIRST time].

    Apr 21st, 2018 - 02:10 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    I know it's only an expression, but when mentioned in the context of the PT, and 'by' the PT, it translates into the arrogant self-importance the toad bestows upon know,
    like a mafia boss. Sounds a lot like N.Korea's Kim Jong Un.

    Looks like your imagination is having a field day with you....everything I say, according to you, is said “with joy”', or “in anger”, or “fuming”....what's next Reekie ?
    “I” think it's your emotions playing tricks on you.

    Reekie, as you have shown, you are aware that Lula is prone to be dramatic - see your own post where you mentioned Lula’s opinion of himself, “I'm no longer a human being--I am an idea”…how pious...and hilarious ; Soon his followers will ask the Pope to canonize him. What miracle with they claim he performed ? Ah yes, he “lifted 40 million out of poverty....with the bolsa familia”...instead of a miracle, more like a 'mirage'.

    Reekie I've confirmed to everyone who has asked, “yes , I hate Lula”....and , so what ?? get over it....and also 'yes', Lula's lamp-post (like Dilma was), won't get very far....look at Haddad, with a 2% following.

    ”a white knight taken aback by ”corruption,”....Hardly. Corruption, being the one constant in Brazilian politics, does NOT surprise me in the least....what is surprising however, and not only to me, is the unprecedented level that Lula & Co. took it to.

    I have asked you before - and you systematically refuse to answer - why do you blindly believe Lula is innocent ? what do you know that all the prosecutors and judges don't know ? OR is it because he is your ideological hero ? if you can't answer, or don't want to - much the same - at least avoid embarassing yourself.

    Apr 21st, 2018 - 08:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    It was probably the journalist who said that, but whatever. I don't think Lula is comparing himself to god, but I don't like this habit of leaders choosing their successor either. They often either choose someone weak who they can control, or at least someone who will continue to follow the ex-leader's own policies. Whereas when the party members choose, they are more likely to pick someone who has their own ideas and will be a good leader.

    RE EM, I think it's exactly that Lula is his ideological hero. Either he doesn't believe Lula could have done anything wrong, or he just doesn't care because he wants Lula to be president again regardless.

    PS. Why 'lamp-post'?

    Apr 22nd, 2018 - 08:45 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))


    REF: “Lamp-Post”: ???
    - for the “enlightenment” and also
    - for helping the dogs to piss on

    “Lula is welcome to give his blessing to whoever the heck he wants”:
    But - maybe - AFTER he leaves the jail [in a few days]. And to do that; he just has to fake some illness;
    - to the judicial system's “consideration”
    - to gain additional sympathetic & naive devotees
    - to release his fellow-racketeers
    - to gather more illicit gains for him + for his associates

    Apr 22nd, 2018 - 10:43 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot


    Of course you are free to hate Lula, to believe the judges were right to jail him for “accepting” as a bribe an apartment that never belonged to him, and to ignore the tangible social progress he accomplished during his two terms as Brazil president.

    You are also free to decry Lula's “corruption,” and show bias by keeping conveniently silent about the other side's numerous examples of corruption, particularly Temer's.

    Now, to indulge in insults to a man who is now behind bars after been twice elected president by the people of Brazil is degrading to your own argument.

    It shows the same level of hate the few privileged feel for intruder troublemakers like Lula. Who this member of the unwashed thought he was, having the gall to become president and trying to allow his unwashed fellows to live a bit better?


    “AFTER he leaves the jail [in a few days]...he just has to fake some illness.”

    So you are predicting that Lula may become (falsely) ill, trick prison doctors and judges, participate in the election, win it and then accomplishing all the deeds you list?

    Scary scenario indeed. Would you care to add to your list: “Daring to lift another 40 million of Brazilians from poverty?”


    Looking at the big picture:

    “...elites...will only accept democracy when it produces outcomes conducive to elite interests. Any real attempts to foster socialism, or even just a more equitable society, will result in an alliance between local elites and imperialism with the aim of restoring the status quo.”

    Apr 22nd, 2018 - 05:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I don't subscribe to the theory that capitalism needs to be replaced by something else. All the alternatives that I have seen are much worse. I think Lula was broadly right during his presidency to try and work within the system, and right not to try to change the constitution to give himself more terms, or engage in the sort of shenanigans to stay in power that we have seen in Venezuela. And I reckon if the author of the article got her way it would be pretty disastrous for South Africa, too.

    Anyway, if Lula can't stand then the field is wide open. The people are perfectly able to elect someone else from the PT, or the many other left-wing parties, and that is quite likely since none of the 'mainstream' options has broken 10% popularity (probably because they are all accused of involvement in the corruption).

    RE Lula getting out of jail, at his age I should think serving his sentence at home for medical reasons is a real possibility, and many of the other politicians must be feeling the judges at their heels; they won't want him treated too harshly. I think him being allowed to stand in the election is extremely unlikely, however.

    Also, I noticed the article says Lula invested heavily in education, while Jack Bauer says the opposite and that Lula did not invest enough. So what is the truth?

    Apr 22nd, 2018 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    'lamp post' : name given to Dilma (in Portuguese, “poste”), describing her as some inanimate object that would never complain, or go against her creator (Lula). And as :o)) appropriately defined, someone to be pissed Lula

    When will you understand that it is not a matter of “believing the judges were right to jail him for “accepting” as a bribe an apartment that never belonged to him” ? My belief of his guilt (with regards to the “triprekis”) stems from the evidence produced (and lots of it) that Lula's defense was not able to explain...the most basic, “why did Lula's wife carry on discussing reforms in the ”triprekis“ with Leo Pinheiro until Oct 2014, if the apartment was not Lula's ?” That is why I have said you are not familiar with the process.

    As to why the flat was not in Lula's name, which 'technically' permitted him to claim the “triprekis” was not his, has already been explained a dozen times....but believe what you want.

    “...and to ignore the tangible social progress he accomplished during his two terms as Brazil president”
    Again what TANGIBLE social progress ? do you really believe that the 'bolsa famila', a monthly amount of about US$ 50, is going to “lift millions out of poverty” ? at best it put food on their table. And where are all those millions now ? Exactly where they were when they became recipients of the BF. On the other hand, IF Lula had invested heavily in basic education and health, then yes, any 'progress' obtained could have been sustained. Official stats even show that those classified as being under the poverty line, increased as the crisis exploded (2014).
    Also, something you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge, is the fact that I have said, plenty of times, that I DO believe Temer is corrupt. Evidence presented so far (whistleblowers testimony, suspicions of favouring businessmen for bribes, docs) is very damaging, and his day in court will come. And when it does, I won't be defending him.

    Apr 22nd, 2018 - 08:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))


    Lulla is behind bars [although he knows NOTHING] is due to his own, his party's & his associates' [also behind bars] misdeeds during [+/-] 20 years. “The Triplex” is just a SMALL tip of a Very Wealthy Iceberg.

    He and the rest of the crooks are most likely be free before completing their sentences - sooner than you expect - thanks to the corrupt system which is mounted by the traditionally-corrupt.

    The SAME crooked system lets the crooks to remain not only politically active [thereby continuing to earn special monitory & other benefits] but also permits them to keep their illicit gains.

    During those 20 years, if he has any “Good Deeds” to his credit; those deeds do not make him “NOT Guilty”.

    Neither does it imply that he is somehow “victimized” by the Other [fellow] Racketeers and they - the other fellow racketeers - are forever going remain without trials and free practically overnight. Just hold-on till the drama unfolds.

    Apr 23rd, 2018 - 11:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer


    “Now, to indulge in insults to a man who is now behind bars after been twice elected president by the people of Brazil is degrading to your own argument”…
    Don’t try to use my ‘insult’ as a reason to invalidate the facts - it changes nothing.

    “It shows the same level of hate the few privileged feel for intruder troublemakers like Lula. Who this member of the unwashed thought he was, having gall to be president and try to allow his unwashed fellows to live a bit better?”

    You continue to misunderstand something very basic : after Lula was elected, the “few privileged” or whatever you want to call the elite that you now accuse of trying to get rid of him, were just too pleased to pamper him and get into bed with him, in exchange for favours, and for Lula’s personal benefit ($$$), of course.
    The problem is that the PT (‘n later the PMDB, and others) thought their plan was perfect (institutionalizing crime in the Fed Govt) and that they’d never be caught ; they were caught and are now just paying the price, including the bearded toad.

    And strangely enough, the poor devils you like to call the ‘unwashed’, are no better off than when Lula was elected. Btw, have never read so much BS in one place as in Vashna Jagarnath’s article.

    “Also, I noticed the article says Lula invested heavily in education, while Jack Bauer says the opposite, that Lula did not invest enough. So what is the truth?”
    The truth : Lula claims to have created 18 new universities. In a previous post to Terence LulaLiar (where he was praising Lula), I pointed out that maybe 6, more likely only 4, actually exist…the others exist only on paper, plus the fact that even with ALL (?) these universities, the number of graduates in Lula’s first 6 yrs is less than the last 4 yrs of FHC etc, etc…anyway, what’s the point of creating universities (even if they 'did' exist) if the public schools are unable to produce students capable of entering university to get a higher education ?

    Apr 23rd, 2018 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Enrique Massot


    ”I DO believe Temer is corrupt...his day in court will come (and) I won't be defending him.“

    How moving.

    Unfortunately, your attempt to appear impartial is too little, too late. You are ready to ditch Temer ”when his day in court arrives“ probably because:

    1. You know Temer is holding the power for the time being--the powers that be need somebody else for the mid-term.
    2. You know Temer will not face a least not for the foreseeable future.

    In any event, your anger and insults have been so far exclusively directed to Lula. That's OK--show your convictions. But don't pretend to be impartial or just scandalized by Lula's corruption when you know well that about half of the legislators who unseated Dilma are to their knees into corrupt affairs--and Dilma did not steal anything.

    You cannot be knowledgeable about Brazilian reality and believe that judge Sergio Moro is an impartial judge administering legal principles. He has only too clearly shown the nature of his ”mission.”

    Moro, similarly to Argentina's judge Claudio Bonadio, is an 'activist' judge--that is, a judge with a goal--to take Lula out of circulation--and he worked his way towards that goal.

    The Supreme Tribunal had an opportunity to allow for democracy take its course--but the pressures, including that of the military, were too great.

    A really sad time for South America's most powerful country.

    Apr 23rd, 2018 - 08:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I looked up some stats about education in Brazil. I couldn't find number of graduations per year, but I did find an OECD report saying expenditure of education increased by 121% between 2000 and 2008, and in chart B4.1, it shows the percentage of money spent on education was basically the same in 1995 and 2000, and it was below the OECD average, but by 2008 it was much higher, putting Brazil in third place.

    FHC was president until 2003, but also between 1995 and 2000, so I don't think you can attribute all the growth to him.

    And I found another article about the government programs to give scholarships and loans to students, and that lists the increase in number of students like so:

    * Face-to-face public education, REUNI and IFETs: 33% growth between 2007, when the programmes were created, and 2011.
    * Distance public education, UAB: 77% growth between 2006, when the programme was created, and 2011.
    * Face-to-face private education, FIES and PROUNI: 41% growth between 2002 and 2011.

    In 2014 when the programs ended and the recession began, the number of students dropped again.

    “What’s the point of creating universities if the public schools are unable to produce students capable of entering university to get a higher education ?”

    Even if the schools are bad some percentage of students will be ready to enter university, and in a country as big as Brazil that is a lot of people. There can still be a need for more university places even if the schools are not up to scratch, and a need for graduates in the workforce also. That's not to say the schools don't need investment too, of course.

    Apr 23rd, 2018 - 09:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))


    Q: “What’s the point of creating universities if the public schools are unable to produce students capable of entering university to get a higher education?” Sounds pathetic, doesn't it?

    A: You tell US; if at all there is SOME point!

    Apr 23rd, 2018 - 11:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “Jack has never hidden his 'real political leanings’,”
    You’re in accurate to say the least.
    JB “Your insistence that I'm a fascist”
    Brazil's corruption scandals reach Lula da Silva: ...
    12 Jack Bauer; “..'Military dictatorship', ..history is showing,.. that it was good for Brazil
    50 Jack Bauer; “Military taking over again, ….. they did it to prevent Brazil from being handed over to the communists. ... the Military , I hope, would be there again to save Brazil
    Brazil remembers the 50th anniversary of the coupe…
    15 Jack Bauer; “..Am pretty sure that military are accompanying all this … I hope they DO take over...”

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 11:16 am - Link - Report abuse -1
  • DemonTree

    @The Liar
    I'm very accurate; the fact he openly said and never denies saying all those things you so repetitively quote proves it.

    But then, you're the idiot who said Jack was hiding the fact he was born in BA, so what can we expect?

    DO you think Moro is impartial? Either in his intentions or in his actions? I suspect in practice being completely unbiased might be impossible, especially with Brazil's inquisitorial justice system, but he may or may not have his own agenda.

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 12:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    “Lula is growing in the polls in all scenarios for first and second electoral rounds and can even win without a runoff,” the petition reads.
    “Election without Lula is fraud” is the manifesto being promoted by intellectuals and artists like Noam Chomsky and Chico Buarque in support of former Brazilian President Luiz Inacio “Lula” da Silva's participation in the 2018 presidential elections.”
    “Elsewhere, Spain’s El País ran the headline “If Lula is prevented from being a candidate it will be a fraud“, on its Friday 19th January cover. France’s La Liberation, ran with “Those who accuse me know they have lied” and an interview with Lula himself. German media has over the past year reported more extensively on the legal persecution of the former President, with Die Zeit carrying this interview.”

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    First you accuse me of defending Temer ; then when I agree he’s corrupt, you reply “How moving” (?)
    Fact is, whether you believe me or not, can't wait to see all of them in jail. If Temer’s not re-elected he loses immunity /can be convicted.
    In case you haven’t yet realized, Lula is currently the centre of attraction becos it was HIS trial / imprisonment that've just occurred. When Temer & pals are charged, focus will shift to them.
    Most have long stopped being scandalized at Lula's corruption, and yr definition of partial / impartial is kinda screwed up.
    By believing Moro is partial proves you have no idea what evidence was presented, and by your remarks, one might think the whole judiciary - with exception of 3 or 4 SC justices - is out to 'get Lula'...Moro didn’t ask for the Lavajato to fall in his lap, but since it did, too bad for the crooks. What you can't bear is your hero being caught ‘n jailed. Get over it.

    The 1st paragraph of the OECD link, seems to indicate “although more, in absolute terms, was spent in Lula’s years’, is was LESS efficient”...which is what I was saying.
    The info I had found also indicates enrollment in the tertiary level drops off pathetically, and number of graduates stagnated.
    The programs you list re scholarships / loans fizzled out in Dilma’s 2nd term (while revenue is plentiful, investments & corruption can 'coexist' without tipping the apple cart) and by 2014/15, financing for these programs all but disappeared. Temer had to resuscitate them. Don’t think the discussion is abt individual students going ahead, but the unfounded claims of miracles ‘n the overall (in)efficiency of the system.

    AFAIC, Lula’s incapacity to explain away the evidence is sufficient proof to me of Moro’s impartiality. Intentions mean nothing if not backed by proof, and the conviction wouldn't have stood up in appellate court if he’d been partial.

    And the leftist 'manifesto' the Liar mentions...Chomsky, Chico Buarque ? pure BS.

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 04:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))

    Like it or NOT, agree or NOT; the next [+ the subsequent presidents who will follow]; WILL be the racketeers [one better than the other].

    Sorry to be the messenger of the news. But after all; nobody is totally immune to [inoculated against] at least a little bit of, at least SOME kind of corruption!

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 07:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Sadly, the chances are that in the next election, we'll be substituting six for half-a-dozen. Being realistic, it will take several elections to get rid of the ingrained corruption, provided it is possible at all...which won't be easy given the culture of the 'jeitinho'.

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 09:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))


    REF: 'jeitinho'

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 10:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I think it's more that you believe Temer is guilty, but you don't feel the need to call him names and you don't seem particularly angry about it. Why?

    ”although more, in absolute terms, was spent in Lula’s years’, is was LESS efficient”

    Not really. It's saying that the number of (university) students increased faster than the money spent, but that still means a lot more students. What info are you looking at for student numbers?

    Do you think Dilma should have continued the scholarships and loans during the recession? I presume she cut them to save money.

    Re Moro, have you seen this?

    Apr 24th, 2018 - 11:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “I’m very accurate; the fact he openly said and never denies saying all those things” “Jack has never hidden his 'real political leanings’,”
    Except, JB “Your insistence that I'm a fascist” Brazil's corruption scandals reach Lula da Silva: ...
    15 Jack Bauer; “..Am pretty sure that military are accompanying all this … I hope they DO take over...”
    12 Jack Bauer; “..'Military dictatorship', ..history is showing,.. that it was good for Brazil

    Apr 25th, 2018 - 04:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Good question ‘n deserves a good answer (obviously, from my perspective): I have accompanied Lula since the early 70s; have seen him develop from ‘mildly’ corrupt (while union leader) to top crook in the Federal Govt ; he/Dilma caused the recession /bankrupted Brazil. I hate his political, populist leaning, evident by the fact he was founding member of the FSP; his friendship with, and defence of fanatical dictators, like Chavez, Maduro, Fidel and others (Kadafi, while alive, Bashar Al Assad etc) ; his dislike for and his attacks on the free press ; his constant rhetoric throwing the poor against the rich ; his lies : he “lifted 40 million out of poverty (Dilma claimed 100 million)”, “did more for Brazil in 4 years than others in the previous 500”, “No one can say they are more honest than me” etc ; academically speaking, an uncouth ignoramus.
    With all this arrogant self-praise, sounds like the leader of a radical cult, not a president. Enough ?

    Temer : after becoming VP he seems to have used his influence to make up for lost time, but it’s not because he ‘appears’ to be less corrupt that I went easier on him…after the recession exploded (end 2014), he at least tried to fix Brazil’s most serious problems - by the much needed reforms, which Lula / PT oppose.
    Don’t think Temer will be re-elected, and will probably go to prison - unless Congress “approves a law making corruption legal”.

    Regarding student numbers, see my post under “SC rejects Lula’s petition : must start prison term” of Apr 09, 04:31am, in reply to a farcical claim by Terry the LulaLiar. I googled various articles , but basic info was taken from one by Reinaldo Azevedo - google “A fabulosa farsa de “Lula, o maior criador de universidades do mundo”.

    Due to incompetence, Dilma had run out of money, reason why many of these programs ran into financing problems.

    Re Moro, have you seen this? , will need space.

    Apr 25th, 2018 - 07:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Try saying something to the Liar next time you need more space. ;)

    What you said is about what I expected: you dislike Lula for a lot of other reasons, most of them political, and the corruption is just another thing on top of that. Shows how much of a difference political views make.

    “Don’t think Temer will be re-elected, and will probably go to prison”

    The way Maluf has? Even if Temer is convicted, I doubt he'll spend much time in jail, and Congress legalising corruption still seems quite likely.

    I found the article you mentioned about student numbers, but it doesn't mention where the figures come from. Perhaps I'll have another look tomorrow.

    Apr 25th, 2018 - 10:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Instigate the Liar, for space ? good idea…he’s like a watch dog, only problem, he’s lost his teeth.

    Sure, identification with certain political views can soften criticism, but in the end want them all to go down. Anyway, don’t really have a ‘favourite’ crook. If not re-elected, Temer's case should go to Lower court, where things move MUCH faster.

    Reinaldo Azevedo’s source of the student numbers was the Ministry of Education.

    Ryr question on Moro : , all I can say at the moment, is first need to see who Tacla Duran is : google “Quem é Rodrigo Tacla Duran, o advogado foragido da Lava Jato” : Has an arrest warrant issued by Moro, for having allegedly received R$ 60 million while an Odebrecht employee & active PMDB facilitator of Petrobras related bribes. When accused, he fled to Spain, from where he can’t be extradited as he has dual citizenship. His alleged declarations were the result of a visit by 2 'PT' congressmen, heading a Parliamentary Commission of Inquiry, looking into “JBS” corruption (not linked to PB /Odebrecht); According to the Congressmen, Moro demanded a USD 5 million bribe, and I ask, from whom 'n for what ? from, and to help JBS ? When cross-examined by Senators (via video conference) Tacla Duran denied having accused Moro, and said he had no evidence to back up the Congressmen's allegations - See in which Tacla Duran confirms he did not accuse Moro; and, as we all know, Moro's jurisdiction is limited to Petrobras, and Marcelo Odebrecht is in jail; According to TD, the person who allegedly requested the bribe is a labor lawyer named Carlos Zucolotto, who did consultancy work for Odebrecht, and is partner in a law firm where Moro’s wife also used to be. Is that the connection the PT is using to try to discredit/ implicate Moro? the fact his wife worked in the same law firm as Zucolotto ?

    Apr 26th, 2018 - 06:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))


    REF: “If not re-elected, Temer's case should go to Lower court, where things move MUCH faster”:

    Looks like it:

    Apr 26th, 2018 - 10:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Lost his marbles, more like. But he does always want the last word. ;)

    Re the crooks, I suspect the media can influence people's attitudes, not by lying but just reporting more on some cases than others. If they talk about Lula every day then everyone is going to think about it more and get more indignant than about some other politician they barely mention. Seems for most of them you have to go hunting up information on what is happening with trials, charges etc, whereas Lula's case was always reported on.

    You may not have a favourite crook, but if you had to choose between a candidate who you knew was crooked but whose policies you liked, and one who was clean but you disagreed with then, which would you pick?

    Tacla Duran, I think he says he was offered a (very good) plea bargain if he paid a bribe, on some case Moro was investigating, and it was offered by a partner in the law firm Moro's wife works at? But he decided to flee to Spain instead. Don't know if it's true, but judges and lawyers aren't immune to taking bribes, are they?

    I've found some student numbers on inep but they're not exactly in a convenient format. Maybe I'll see if I can get something out of them tomorrow; it's so difficult searching in a foreign language. You're lucky being able to speak more than one.

    Apr 26th, 2018 - 10:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    It's only normal that Lula be in headlines more than others...but that should change as other prominent politicians are charged. People will see 'poor' Lula isn't a scape goat (for anyone). Just for your info, Palocci (Lula's confidant and right-hand man for years, like Jose Dirceu was), has agreed to a plea-bargain with the Federal Police, promising to throw the sh*t in the fan about what happened between 2003 and 2014....let's wait to see if he has anything interesting to say.

    Parting from the principle that most, if not all politicians are crooked to a certain extent, or need to do some dirty deals to get the necessary support to get things approved, that puts them all on more or less equal the next criteria would be their record and their declared policies. If I disagreed with their policies (either economic, or ideological), even IF 'presumed clean' (something hard to REALLY know), I would not vote for them. Better the devil you know than the one you don't.

    The insinuations that Moro had asked for, or taken a bribe, came from the PT congressmen....Tacla, in the 2nd video denied knowledge of anything that could incriminate Moro, so looks like the congressmen tried to link Moro, through his wife, to Zucolotto, the lawyer whom Tacla Duran said was demanding the money to 'facilitate' things. But let them investigate. I'll put my money on Moro.

    Agree, several judges have been accused, and removed, for taking bribes...but I don't believe it's Moro's case. Now, one judge I wouldn't put my hand in the fire for, is Gilmar Mendes.

    I believe that most governments tend to downplay their faults and exaggerate their achievements, and in the case of the PT, with the billions they spent on propaganda (to try to compensate for what they didn't do), am not convinced by any of their claims.

    Apr 27th, 2018 - 03:27 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))


    REF: “Better the devil you know than the one you don't”:

    That's the ONLY way out! In fact, amongst the political circles; being corrupt has become a “Status Symbol”!

    Apr 27th, 2018 - 08:42 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    (Continuation of “Death of a black woman...”, as comments were CLOSED)

    That's basically what I meant…..The British army’s experience IS in REAL wars, not in the middle of a city like Rio, where the death toll amongst the police (and civilians) is similar to a war, but the army has to sit back and cannot engage the enemy. What progress can the military make in Rio if their hands are tied, with problems like collateral damage ? In their current capacity, just patrolling the streets, seems a pointless mission.

    The situation 50 years ago was very different. The problem was political (with external interference), not drugs and out-of-control street crime.
    Would they take over again ? If just because of crime in Rio and a few other locations, I definitely don’t think so. Only because of political corruption, provided it can be controlled to a certain extent, don’t think so either. But ‘perhaps’, in an extreme situation whereby a radical leftist government got into power and threatened to turn Brazil into another VZ. I’m pretty sure the Brazil’s generals would not accept such a government, as VZ’s did.

    Things in Rio are definitely worse now…in 2016, it is likely that the police, in the attempt to 'keep the peace', and to avoid more violence, decided for a unilateral truce.

    The opening ceremony of the Olympics was held 5th August, while Temer was still only interim-president. Amidst the cheering and the jeering you could hear people chanting ‘Fora Temer’ and ‘Volta Dilma’ (‘Temer get out’ & ‘Dilma come back’), which IMO, came from PT supporters, as no one, at that point could have known what Temer would be like.
    Right until the last moments before Dilma's impeachment, her ousting was not a done deal.

    Apr 27th, 2018 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    We'll see about the headlines, I would have thought there would be more about Temer as he is currently president, and more now about the ministers who've resigned to stand for election, but I don't know what is being reported within Brazil.

    Will be interesting to see what Palocci says, but I don't like all these plea bargains. They use them a lot in the US and you can't help suspecting that people sometimes confess to things they haven't done because they are afraid of getting a long sentence.

    And if you wouldn't vote for someone you disagreed with even if you thought they were clean, you should be able to understand why people still support Lula despite his conviction. Especially when most of the alternatives appear to be just as bad.

    Your link to the video didn't come out, since it was the 2nd in your post, but I couldn't understand it anyway. But you're saying Tacla Duran never mentioned Moro, it was this other lawyer who asked for the bribe? Could that lawyer have had any influence on the plea bargain? Was it solely up to Moro or do other people have to agree to it?

    RE Rio, it might be closer than you think. My manager says they had these ridiculous rules that basically you couldn't shoot anyone who wasn't shooting at you right that moment. If they turned and ran away, you had to stop shooting, then they would get behind cover and start shooting you again. Also, they would hide their guns in bushes etc and walk around empty handed right in front of the soldiers until they were all in position to attack. But the soldiers weren't allowed to do anything to them as long as the men were unarmed.

    It should be easier in Rio because the soldiers are not foreign occupiers, but I'm not sure the people in favelas don't see them that way, and the the more heavy handed they are, the likely ordinary people will turn against them. It's a sad fact that many men turn into bullies if you put a gun in their hands.

    @The Liar
    Repeating yourself doesn't make it more true...

    Apr 27th, 2018 - 06:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Terence Hill

    DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
    “Repeating yourself doesn't make it more true…” The point is with citations proves it is true.
    You as his aider and abettor, acting as his surrogate speaks volumes about you both.

    Apr 27th, 2018 - 07:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer

    Temer will only become the centre of attraction after he's formally charged, which won't happen until 2019.

    Palocci's plea-bargain will only reduce his sentence IF it is reliable and leads to clues that lead to evidence. It's the MPF (Fed Public Ministry) and the Federal Police who conduct the plea-bargains, and only after accepted and signed, does the evidence get passed on the judges.

    Being 'presumed' clean is not enough to vote for someone...their ideology plays an important part.

    As to understanding those who still support Lula, AFTER he's been convicted, and in jail,
    can only be for 2 reasons : either because they are too damned ignorant to realize he was the cause of the recession and the mess they are in (not to mention PB's virtual bankruptcy, and the pardon of hundreds of millions of dollars in loans to his dictator friends), or because they stand to benefit from supporting him. Anyway, by any standard, who isn't an idiot, still supports a convicted felon who's in jail ?

    While Tacla Duran accuses this other lawyer of wanting money, I don't know what plea-bargain - that Moro would have had access to - you are referring to.

    OK, so Rio has it's similarities with what the British army has/had to put up with... Can't agree with the 'stop shooting' part though...They should keep on shooting and try to eliminate them, regardless...I mean, aren't they the enemy which wants to kill you ? To be subject to political correctness in a war situation, is absurd.

    The polls taken in Rio couple of months ago, after the army had started occupying the streets, were favourable.....can't say what the “favelados” really think now, but they are the ones who have to choose between living in the middle of daily shootouts and giving the army a vote of confidence...I don't know how it can be solved.
    But IMO, what makes a few of the police into bullies, when armed, is a combination of where they themselves came from, and their low level of education/ training.

    Apr 27th, 2018 - 07:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • :o))


    REF: “Temer will only become the center of attraction after he's formally charged, which won't happen until 2019”:

    That's true!

    But strangely enough; his popularity seems to be on the rise:

    Apr 28th, 2018 - 11:38 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    I don't think Lula was the cause of the recession; it was due to the slow-down in China, just as the boom during Lula's presidency was due to the surge in demand from China. Lula's or Dilma's policies might have made the recession worse, but I'm not at all sure of that. You've got a better case blaming them for the trouble at PB.

    As for who still supports a convicted felon, people who think he's innocent or people who think all the other politicians are just as bad. And especially people who support his ideology.

    RE Tacla Duran, I was wondering who had to agree to the plea bargains, but you've said about it's the MPF and the Federal Police. Does the judge also have to agree?

    I can't find whatever article I read about Tacla Duran in (it was in English), but is this a good summary of what happened?

    There's a diagram at the bottom showing the connection to Moro.

    As for the army, believe me, they thought the rules were stupid too. I suppose the government is afraid they'll be accused of war crimes for shooting 'unarmed men' or that it would look bad shooting people in the back who are running away. It's difficult because if they react too harshly it turns people against them and more terrorists pop up to replace the ones they killed, but if they don't do enough the situation just gets worse and either way they are at risk themselves.

    And now I have more space, I don't think there is much chance of a radical leftist government getting in. You already had the PT for 13 years and although you didn't like it, Brazil is still a capitalist country not all that different to how it's been in previous decades. But it's still kind of worrying what the army is saying.

    Also, I think it was pretty clear what Temer was like even before he became President. I certainly don't remember being surprised.

    Apr 28th, 2018 - 04:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Jack Bauer


    “don't think Lula caused the recession; it was due to the slow-down in China, just as the boom during Lula's presidency was due to the surge in demand from China. Lula's or Dilma's policies might have made the recession worse”.

    Disagree. The 2004 boom sure carried Lula on its shoulders, but the slowdown in China did not cause the recession here, which exploded in 2014. The 2008 crisis caused by the US, affected Europe (& the US) to the point of Lula preferring to regard them as last priority. (just fyi, Lula described the crisis as “just a small wave”, which “would not affect Brazil”...Really ?). Brazil (Lula's decision) then put all its eggs in one basket, i.e.,China.

    The drop in commodity prices (from Bzl : mainly soya, iron ore, oil) in 2011, coincided with the start of China’s slowdown, and no doubt affected Bzl’s export revenue (& taxes), but the economic sectors hit directly were not labor-intensive, and the employment level was not really impacted ; Before the 2004 boom, Brazil had survived OK without the export revenue (fm commodities), so when it started rolling in it was a ‘plus’, upon which Brazil had not been dependent. In 2016, commodity prices/exports to China started recovering, and in 2017 Brazil had a superavit of US$ 20 billion, with China. In the same way as this recovery benefited Brazil, it was not sufficient to end the recession. What I’m saying is China’s slowdown impacted Brazil but did not cause the recession.

    The real cause was gross mismanagement of the economy, resulting in investor lack of confidence, impacting employment in labor-intensive sectors, i.e., manufacturing industry /commercial activity, resulting in the well-known vicious circle. The warning signs were clear, but Lula/Dilma refused to heed them, carrying on with their populism and bleeding the BNDES, PB and other State-run companies. Just fyi, corruption in Brazil is believed to have reached US$ 200 billion per yr.
    Need space for T. Duran. tks.

    Apr 28th, 2018 - 09:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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