MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Brazil and Argentina markets hit by domestic and overseas uncertainties
Major Latin American currencies fell against the dollar on Thursday as global trade tensions strengthened the greenback and political uncertainty in Brazil and Argentina. Latin America's largest economy heads into a presidential election in two months time and in Argentina a major corruption scandal is unfolding. Read full article
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Aug 10th, 2018 - 12:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -1chronic i.e pathological
Aug 10th, 2018 - 12:23 pm - Link - Report abuse -3I see you're giving us your invaluable opinion, all two cents worth.
Teresa: MAGA will economically crush canuckystan.
Aug 10th, 2018 - 04:45 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Brazil and Argentina are being hit mainly by domestic economic decisions that have made their economies much more vulnerable to the ups and downs of the international situation.
Aug 10th, 2018 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse -2An example is president Mauricio Macri's much parroted “return to the world” that consisted in massive foreign borrowing while promises of a “deluge of foreign investment” were never fulfilled.
In both countries, however, the current governments are ensuring potential rivals stay out of upcoming contests.
In Brazil, Lula has been put behind bars to ensure he can't continue a successful election campaign.
In Argentina, president Mauricio Macri is working with partisan prosecutors and judges to prevent Cristina Fernández de Kirchner from running next year.
The same powers that used to send the army to government when things failed to go their way are now using members of the judiciary to achieve the same goals, that is, keep the real power no matter what the electors want.
Nothing new under the sun.
Argentina and Brazil's economic difficulties are clearly victims of previous administrations gross mismanagement, yet our Socialist-Marxist expert Enrique Massot insists on defending Lula and Cristina which is more proof to us living in an age of expert idiots... I'm reminded of the sentence from Proverbs 26:11: “As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.”
Aug 10th, 2018 - 05:56 pm - Link - Report abuse +1chronic i.e pathological
Aug 10th, 2018 - 08:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0MAGA a claim first extolled by Mussolini on behalf of Italy. Another blowhard, who was at least original.
Yeah, doesn't look like its exactly all roses so far
https://www.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=1429704
@ Chicureo
Aug 10th, 2018 - 08:33 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“Argentina and Brazil's economic difficulties are clearly victims of previous administrations gross mismanagement...”
Why, of course! Why weren't we able to see the evidence? All's the fault of the previous governments!
Chicureo is in tune with our very Mauricio Macri, who has been in office for 32 months and still insists the fault is CFK's. The fact that during Macri's term Argentina's economic situation has been consistently deteriorating and approaching the point of no return is of no concern to our commentator.
Not to be discouraged by trivialities, however, Chicureo seeks support in Augusto Pinochet's wisdom:
“We practically wiped this nation clean of Marxists,” said in a 1988 speech the former Chilean dictator. Marxists were not his only target: he prosecuted leftists, socialists, and any other political critics alike.
Just in case, Chicureo seeks support from none other than the Sacred Bible as proof of us living “in an age of expert idiots.”
Impressive.
To provide some “legitimacy” to his statements, our trans-Andin expert attempts to depict labels such as ”Socialist
Every I read one of Enrique Massot's posts, I'm reminded of dog vomit...
Aug 10th, 2018 - 09:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Our Argentine brothers have experienced an economic roller coaster from being one of the wealthiest countries in the world to near bankruptcy on several occasions...
Argentina, Brazil, Chile's (and sadly the rest of Latin America) economic difficulties have ALL been victims of previous administrations gross mismanagement. (Currently, Venezuela is the most unfortunate example.)
We in Chile especially suffered from our Socialist-Marxist experiment during the administration of Salvador Allende. In 1974 our country was broke and only because we embraced three decades of painful free market reforms, did our re-emerging democracy was finally able to emerge as the success it is today.
Enrique would prefer us to extol the virtues of both Cristina and Lula. Both corrupt and clearly guilty of looting their country's wealth.
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 11th, 2018 - 04:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0“We in Chile especially suffered ...during the administration of Salvador Allende.”
So you complained on a previous discourse, I believe that was because of expropriation of some property of your grand-parents.
“In 1974 our country was broke...” That was because Nixon was making your economy “scream”. But above and beyond that, how did you personally suffer?
@Chicureo
Aug 11th, 2018 - 04:29 am - Link - Report abuse -1”Every (time) I read one of Enrique Massot's posts, I'm reminded of dog vomit...“
Why, Chicureo, that's the whole point!
But let's go over your posting.
”In 1976 our country was broke...we embraced...painful free market reforms...our re-emerging democracy...“
No doubt bloody dictator Augusto Pinochet was behind Chile's ”re-emerging democracy.“ As for myself, I do know the cruel repression Pinochet ordered that included horrendous kidnappings, torture, prison and massacres have left a nation with a deeply ingrained post-traumatic stress disorder.
As for Chicu's claim that Chile ”was finally able to emerge as the success it is today,“ here is a take from a source uncontaminated by Socialism-Marxism:
”While its per capita GDP of 23,000 USD (PPP) places Chile among the top countries in Latin America, almost nowhere on the Continent is the gap between rich and poor as wide as here.”
No wonder those on the top side of the equation or those who, like Chicureo, long to be there are singing the praises of Pinochet's Chicago Boys hard-core neoliberal experiment.
Teresa: MAGA proclaims canuckystan “must wait”.
Aug 11th, 2018 - 12:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Lol.
chronic i.e pathological
Aug 11th, 2018 - 01:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Must wait..” Time waits for no man, and Putin's puppet's time is approaching fast.
I have never condoned the human rights abuses that took place in Chile, Argentina and/or Brazil. As a young man, I witnessed the destruction of our economy in Chile somewhat similar to the Socialist-Marxist disaster in Venezuela today. Along with inviting a cadre of Cuban advisors led by Fidel himself, Chile “nationalized” the foreign owned companies here which resulted in severe economic sanctions by the United States retaliating. In the early 70's, we had long waits for extremely limited supplies of food and our standard of living was absolutely miserable.
Aug 11th, 2018 - 04:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Compare Buenos Aires to Santiago with open eyes today and you'll clearly see that we Chileans are far better off economically, enjoy far less corruption and enjoy superior political national security.
I like Argentinians and admire their beautiful country, I just have a very low opinion of their Peronist mentality. Ardent supporters of the Partido Justicialista like Enrique and Terrence really disgust me.
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 11th, 2018 - 05:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“the human rights abuses that took place in Chile, Argentina and/or Brazil... which resulted in severe economic sanctions by the United States” You have stated the causes succinctly. While you may believe in what ever political view you choose. You also acknowledge that the Allende government was freely elected to solve the problem of fifty percent of your populace suffering from malnutrition. Further, that the government had every legal right to nationalise any industry. In particular those that had by unscrupulous means, gained their advantageous position. That you find “Ardent supporters...like...Terrence really disgust me”
Is praise indeed, as being in support of what is right and proper.
“There’s a ‘Work’ ethic for the Poor and a ‘Greed’ ethic for the rich” Herb Block
More dog vomit...
Aug 11th, 2018 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“...the government had every legal right to nationalise any industry...”
Yes and you might consult your Marxist comrades in Venezuela on how things are working out...
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 11th, 2018 - 07:49 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“consult your Marxist comrades in Venezuela” I don't have any marxists buddies period, but by the same token I have no truck with those governments that are inclusive. You must have been one of those reactionaries that benefitted from the coup. Who to absolve their participation, labels anyone who doesn't accept their jaundiced view as a marxist.
Did the vast majority of Chileans directly benefit by overthrowing the Communist lunacy in 1973? ...Considering it took over three decades of very difficult recovery, the answer is as clear as Enrique's and your Marxist-Leninist distorted view of history...
Aug 11th, 2018 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Furious women banging on their pots a pans in the streets of Santiago as well as furious truck drivers going on strike were among the many major contributors in encouraging the military to overthrow Allende. Unfortunately the aftermath was terrible for my country and we faced the consequences.
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 11th, 2018 - 10:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“banging on their pots...truck drivers going on strike” all as result of one major contributor the US in breach of international law. In paying for the strike and participating in the overthrowing of a legitimate democratically elected government. But don't worry, they have done the same in numerous other Latin American countries. They can always find traitors for the right price to do their bidding.
Careful, you could choke on your own vomit... It's no secret the gringos begged and bribed the military, but did they also convinced angry housewives and truck drivers here to betray their country??? You really suffer from a severely distorted perception of history.
Aug 11th, 2018 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Some wisdom from a baroness who I personally respected regarding income disparity. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=okHGCz6xxiw&feature=youtu.be
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 12th, 2018 - 12:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0“the military, but did they also convinced angry housewives and truck drivers here to betray their country?”
Whatever was lacking was a direct result of US economic interference, including bribing the leaders of the trucking union to go on strike. “You really suffer from a severely distorted perception of history.” Apparently not, as it appears I know your history better than you do. https://www.nytimes.com/1974/09/20/archives/cia-is-linked-to-strikes-in-chile-that-beset-allende-intelligence.html
The CIA poured untold millions of Dollars into Chile to counter the grotesque funding by the Soviet bloc, but the strikes against the Allende government was motivated by an overwhelming rejection of the miserable domestic conditions in my country. Housewives and truckers did not betray Chile, they were simply wanted change. ...now go back to reading Chairman Mao's little red book...
Aug 12th, 2018 - 01:50 am - Link - Report abuse -1Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 12th, 2018 - 03:04 am - Link - Report abuse +1“To counter the grotesque funding by the Soviet block” Stuff and nonsense otherwise you'd be showing a verifiable source. There is no support for such a claim in specific terms even from CIA. Theres nothing to support such view published in any major newspaper publishers. The only places that make such claims are minor fervently anti-communist publications, and I have not seen any named sources in such publications.
“now go back to reading Chairman Mao's little red book...” I reject absolutely such authoritarian musings, whether they be from the loony right or left. But, again such claims show your approval of reactionary coups.
Dog vomit Terence,
Aug 12th, 2018 - 01:15 pm - Link - Report abuse -1You defend Lula, Cristina and the former communist government of Chile with equal ignorance. From personal experience, Allende’s regime was a nightmare. Inflation, unemployment, redistributive policies, and government control devastated Chile which became entirely dependent on foreign communist economies.
But then again, it's a waste of time debating with an anarchist like yourself.
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 12th, 2018 - 02:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“You defend Lula, Cristina and the former communist government of Chile with equal ignorance” The only ignorance shown is by a reactionary like you. As trying to fluff off the coup as being legitimate, as having unfettered support. Stuff nonsense, the only legal way to remove a government is at the ballot box.
Yes I defend Lula, as he has been convicted by court that operates in a manner reminiscent of Soviet Block show trials.
The UN Human Rights Committee, also believes he has a prima facia case. I have never commented on Argentine politics, with exception of her constitutional claim to the to Falkland Islands.
There has never been a communist government of Chile. Allende was a democratic socialist, the same as in most free countries. Nor do I approve of anarchists. What you have revealed by attempting to libel me, is that your attempting to hide your own fascism.
Direct quotes from our deluded Socialist-Marxist expert idiot, Enrique Massot:
Aug 12th, 2018 - 02:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“...Yes I defend Lula...convicted by court...”
“...Argentine...constitutional claim to the to Falkland Islands...”
“...Allende was a democratic socialist...”
Proverbs 26:11: “As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.”
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 12th, 2018 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“Direct quotes from our deluded...”
Thank you for confirming that not only are you a fascist, but also a liar by deliberately misquoting.
As you have mentioned dog and vomit three times, your little obsession succinctly footnotes your tripe perfectly.
“The liar's punishment is, not in the least that he is not believed, but that he cannot believe anyone else.”
George Bernard Shaw
Comrade Enrique
Aug 12th, 2018 - 04:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0On a personal note, has your master given you your distemper injection? ...Could explain why you're foaming at the mouth...
Kindly bark twice if any of the following points are not correct:
1. You are sympathetic to Cristina Fernández de Kirchner.
2. You defend Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva.
3. You support that Argentine has a constitutional claim to the to Falkland Islands.
4. You think that Salvador Allende Gossens was not a Marxist-Socialist.
I'll make sure you receive a nice doggie treat if I've somehow misinterpreted you.
Chicureo, why are you libelling poor Enrique? I can assure you his views are much more coherent than Terry's, and his English is better too.
Aug 12th, 2018 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage and traitor
Aug 12th, 2018 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“...more coherent than Terry's, and his English is better too.”
Must be lonely out on your own? Strange that the only people whom you suck up to, share at least two of the following traits. Fascist or nationalist, coupled with being an inveterate liar and/or perpetuating fraud.
Which of those are you claiming apply to EM?
Aug 12th, 2018 - 07:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -1DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage and traitor
Aug 12th, 2018 - 07:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Which of those are you claiming apply to EM?.”
If I was claiming such a thing it would have been addressed to him. Boy! you suck at sucking. That was about the lamest attempt at sophistry I've ever seen on this site.
A pleasant Sunday afternoon DemonTree!
Aug 12th, 2018 - 09:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I was trying to address the silent mongrel, Enrique in the forum, not the barking idiot Terrydog which had already made his distorted thoughts clear.
You and I have debated in the past about Pinochet vs. Allende and I sincerely respect your intellectual opposing opinions. Terrydog on the other hand I think never received a rabies injection... ...sort of explains him foaming at the mouth...
¡Buenas tardes Chicureo!
Aug 12th, 2018 - 09:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I wish you luck trying to get Enrique to debate instead, I'm sure you'd get more sense out of him, but I haven't seen him post for a few days.
Terry seems to be even crazier than usual, first he accuses me of sucking up to EM, then he denies it.
How are you? I just got back from a weekend in Shropshire, attending my friends' wedding.
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 12th, 2018 - 10:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“...which had already made his distorted thoughts clear.” Long on opinions and devoid of any proven facts to support your fascist endorsement. Whereas, you are unable to refute any of my assertions, as they have supporting evidence.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage and traitor
“first he accuses me of sucking up to EM” which is patently untrue as I specified those with the following traits “Fascist or nationalist..” therefore, that must exclude him.
I admire you because I've never had the courage it takes to be a liar, ... and a cheat.
“or the wretched conceit of a liar, in supposing himself clever enough to invent stories so ingenious that they shall, for any time, impose on people for the truth, and the still grosser folly in imagining, as he must do, that the world will, without investigation and analysis, take for granted anything he chooses to assert that world more shrewd, more cunning, and as prying as himself what a conceited ass must the liar be! How superior over others in cunning must he not believe himself! What fools must he not suppose the rest of mankind!”
CHARLES WILLIAM DAY, The Maxims, Experiences, and Observations of Agogos
“which is patently untrue as I specified those with the following traits “Fascist or nationalist..””
Aug 12th, 2018 - 11:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Terry, do you believe I have psychic powers? I know what I think of Enrique, but I don't know what you think of him. I don't believe he's any of those things, which is why I asked you which you were accusing him of. But that doesn't mean you agree with me; you so seldom do.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage and traitor
Aug 12th, 2018 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Terry, do you believe I have psychic powers?” No you're engaging in sophistry by being deliberately obtuse. Since you have never supported him, only those that I have described as such. If you're making such claim, the onus is on you to show were he has displayed such characteristics, or been so called. Lots of luck, as you won't be able to find any such evidence.
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Every time you post you clearly reveal you are a fascist. By displaying the conceit of 'superiority' by dehumanising other posters thus. “....mongrel, Enrique in the forum, not the barking ...Terrydog”
DemonTree
Aug 13th, 2018 - 12:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0Doing well and enjoying my grandchildren. It's been a very pleasant Winter here.
As our custom is to skip Sunday dinner, I've been enjoying this evening with a delightful Concha y Toro Don Melchor with a tabla of jamon serrano, olives and smoked goat cheese. Glad you had a nice weekend. ¡saludos!
Dictionary according to Terence:
Aug 13th, 2018 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0“sophistry: any good and convincing argument made by someone else which I cannot disprove.”
But I see I was right; you really can't understand that I don't know your thoughts, or whether you share my opinion of Enrique.
And if you think I've never supported him your observational skills must be just as terrible as your reasoning ability.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage and traitor
Aug 13th, 2018 - 01:01 am - Link - Report abuse 0sophistry - the use of clever but false arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving:
So you can't show were he has displayed such characteristics, as a fascist or nationalist, or been so called anywhere. Nor can you show where I accusing him of anything of that nature. Your claim your burden.
@Chicureo
Aug 13th, 2018 - 09:16 am - Link - Report abuse -1No Sunday dinner! (Although I can't say I have the traditional roast very often myself, and it's far too hot at the moment to put the oven on.) Our winters are seldom pleasant, I guess yours are a lot warmer and drier?
We had a Chilean wine at the wedding, it was named after an Easter Island king or something, though I don't think it was from Easter Island. The wedding was cool because they wrote their own ceremony, it included a bit from the Amber Spyglass book, and a poem by one of their friends. Also they both changed their name to a completely new one, which is something I've never seen before. I don't know if it's common in Chile for women to change their name when they get married, but it is in the UK.
I guess Crazy Terry thinks I was somehow defending you when I complained about you slandering Enrique, but there's no point arguing with him, you'd get more sense talking to Eliza ( http://psych.fullerton.edu/mbirnbaum/psych101/Eliza.htm ). I think you know my opinion, and there's no point rehashing it all now.
DemonTree
Aug 13th, 2018 - 01:02 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Regarding your comments: Thanks for the Eliza link. I typed a few questions and the program responded as a therapist. Sunday lunch is typically large and we normally skip dinner, but I enjoy snacking with a glass or two of wine. Winter in central Chile is similar to winter in Italy. It's very pleasant here. I don't know the Chilean wine you had at the wedding, probably a UK distributors private label. Regarding names, women do not change their name after marrying. Children adopt the mother's maiden name as their second last name. So for example, if Juan Garcia marries Maria Perez, their children have the last names of Garcia Perez in their documents, but the maiden name no longer is pronounced. In very formal situations you can address a married woman. Maria Perez de Garcia, but it's not very common.
I'm skipping over to the latest CFK scandal. ¡Saludos!
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage and traitor
Aug 13th, 2018 - 01:17 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“Terry thinks I was somehow defending you.” Just your opinion you haven't produced any facts to the contrary. Your claim your burden.
So I can draw an adverse inference with your failure, that you are a liar
Dinner doesn't have to be in the evening, it's just the biggest meal, so you're not missing out after all. And your system of names sounds a lot more sensible; it's such a pain learning a new name for someone you've known for years, and there's all that paperwork that needs changing, too. Plus it makes finding old friends on Facebook much harder.
Aug 13th, 2018 - 03:59 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“Maria Perez de Garcia, but it's not very common.”
CFK is named that way, but the papers mostly seem to call her Cristina Kirchner.
DemonTree
Aug 13th, 2018 - 04:12 pm - Link - Report abuse -1She's also commonly known as Cristina Fernández de Mierda...
(Terry's middle name)
Hermanito Shileno...
Aug 13th, 2018 - 05:46 pm - Link - Report abuse +11) Ni en una curda de Don Melchor le es pemitido a un caballero insultar a una dama..., la Concha y Toro de tu madre....;-)
2) Since you mentioned grandchildren..., Two European ones of mine trekked intensively Chile and Argentina during last summer...
- Two smart kids..., the one..., an Anarko Antifa..., the other..., a Humanist...
- Interestingly..., their (afaik) unbiased observations about both our luuuuvely populations were quite in line with dear Sr. Massot when he says above that...: “Pinocchio left Chile with a deeply ingrained post-traumatic stress disorder.”
THINK about that..., milico...
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 13th, 2018 - 05:52 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Glad to see how much you are up to a challenge. I catch sight that you are reduced to name calling, from the cheap seats. So we can safely conclude that all the claims you've made concerning Chile are bogus. While my claims, with the appropriate support are genuine, since you're unable to prove otherwise.
After the PT announced their presidential ticket for 2018 - Lula and Haddad, or Haddad and Manuela D'Avila, no one knows yet - there has been news circulating on social networks that Lula's popularity has hit an all-time record of 95%....
Aug 13th, 2018 - 11:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The only problem is that the news is FAKE....as to be expected, and coming from thousands of PT robots.
The fact is that in 2010, the CNI asked the IBOPE to take a poll, on Lula's popularity...it was 87%, reason why he managed to elect his 'post' Dilma. The date and title of the poll of 2010 has been changed to make people believe it is current.....and the 95% popularity to which it refers, is not the evaluation of his government or how he governed, but of him personally...and in only one region of Brazil, the NE....
@Chicureo, DT
Terence claiming he knows more about what happened in Chile than you, Chicureo ...obviously he thinks that courses by correspondence are everything....I've long realized, as has DT, that Terry is an expert on everything, specially int'l law, and the history of South America....he even (thinks he) knows that bog roll cannot be flushed down the toilet...really ? perhaps in the slum he lived in, up north (Bahia ??), when he (claims he) lived here...
I think I'll claim that the moon is made of green cheese - and since Terry “is unable to PROVE otherwise, he'll have to accept my claim is ”genuine”....if he weren't plain silly, he'd be hilarious.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Aug 14th, 2018 - 12:40 am - Link - Report abuse 0”claiming he knows more about what happened in Chile than you, Chicureo....he even (thinks he) knows that bog roll cannot be flushed down the toilet..”
Chicureo, like you has spent most of this thread arguing that a dictatorship was necessary. Like you he claims, but can produce no evidence to support his narrative. While I show how the public record contradicts his assertions, just like you.
“The US can point to nothing even remotely threatening done by the Brazilian Communist Party”
http://www -personal.umich.edu/~lormand/poli/soa/brazil.htm
JB“The idea that toilet paper cannot be flushed down toilets, is true in only 'parts”
Is absolutely false as besides myself, four other sites have confirmed. While as usual you cannot produce any support for your claim, which therefore confirms your assertion is untrue.
http://en.mercopress.com/2017/07/20/ex-brazilian-president-assets-and-bank-accounts-frozen/comments#comment471145
Go on make another claim, and I'll show the lack of truth.
Jack Bauer
Aug 14th, 2018 - 05:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sadly, we have several idiots on this thread that idolize criminals, such as Lula, Dilma, Allende and the Kirchners, yet claim to know more about our respective countries than we do.
@JB
Aug 14th, 2018 - 05:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Living in a country certainly gives you a better view, but doesn't tell you everything that goes on behind closed doors. The involvement of the CIA in the various Latin American coups only came out after the fact, and unless you were directly involved you wouldn't know about it. What happened to the 'disappeared' in Argentina (and their children) wasn't known until later either. Did you know back in the 70s that the government was torturing people in Brazil?
@Chicureo
You're surely not referring to Think's 'Anarko Antifa', and Humanist grandkids?
@Chicureo
Aug 14th, 2018 - 08:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Provoking TH is so easy....although he has never been to Chile, claims he's lived in Brazil -but refuses to, or can't, say when or where - he speaks with such authority on them....he must be truly great....a great idiot.
@DT
The fact that the general public would never be privy to any CIA involvement in South American coups, while these were happening, is no surprise.
Although at the time ('63/64) we had no idea that the CIA was talking to the Brazilian military, in the 70's some stories of torture and people disappearing, leaked out, but there was no way to find out more, or confirm the rumours...but most people didn't even want to know...on the other hand, why would they ?? you knew what was good for you and carried on with life. And as I've said before, the fact they were there, never affected me.
I remember that in '71/72, while at university, the military 'planted' spies in the classrooms, and when two students (from my Faculty) 'disappeared' without explanation, everyone suspected what had happened...they were outspoken, openly criticized the government and were trying to recruit dissenters.....and most students knew it was only a matter of time before sh*t happened.
Shit, two of your classmates just disappeared? Didn't that bother you at all? And knowing there were spies in the classroom, who might misinterpret something totally innocent, or even accuse someone they merely disliked... You may as well be living in a communist country at that point.
Aug 14th, 2018 - 09:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Did you ever find out what happened to those students?
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Aug 14th, 2018 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“claims he's lived in Brazil” and what's that got to do with price of cheese?
Whats important is you have absolutely no credibility, since I have 'outed' you yet again as a proven liar.
“we had no idea that the CIA was talking to the Brazilian military”
Bullshit, this is what you really wish, 'outed' yet again, fascist.
Brazil's corruption scandals reach Lula da Silva: ...
12 Jack Bauer; “..'Military dictatorship', ..history is showing,.. that it was good for Brazil
Brazil supportive of Mercosur ...
14 Jack Bauer; ”.....but there is still one thing that can save Brazil...the Military..
Brazil waiting for 50bn dollars …
50 Jack Bauer; “Military taking over again, ….. they did it to prevent Brazil from being handed over to the communists. ... the Military , I hope, would be there again to save Brazil
Brazil remembers the 50th anniversary of the coupe…
15 Jack Bauer; “..Am pretty sure that military are accompanying all this … I hope they DO take over...”
Not 'my' classmates, but students in the same faculty. Bother me ? I was just concerned with keeping away from them...and it's not as if what happened was a surprise. Don't think there was much chance of being misinterpreted, and definitely not them...Nope, I never never heard of them again.
Aug 14th, 2018 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“...may as well be living in a communist country at that point”....not really...the communists took 70 years to leave power in the USSR - during which there was NO freedom ; and the military in Brazil stayed for only 20 years, and freedom was relatively high....you knew what would get you screwed - protesting - so you didn't ....and when the people, as a whole, did start protesting, in 1983, two years later the miitary were gone...peacefully, without bloodshed.
Chicureo aka “the hustler”
Aug 14th, 2018 - 10:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“..criminals, such as Lula, Dilma, Allende” As for Kirchners I have no interest, or even an opinion.
What we have on this thread is those who are fascists, that approve of perverting the course of justice to achieve political ends, or subverting democracy for their own self-interests.
“I was just concerned with keeping away from them”
Aug 14th, 2018 - 11:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Why, did you think you'd be in danger if you didn't? And do you think they deserved to be 'disappeared' for criticising the government? Seems strange to me that you complain about the cruelty of the criminals, but don't seem at all concerned your government was torturing people. At least the criminals can be arrested and sent to jail.
“freedom was relatively high”
Doesn't sound very high to me. I suppose you weren't worried because you never held the kind of views the military objected to, but I don't think that would have been true of me. And, apparently, protesting was bad and foolish until enough people did it at once, then it suddenly became good again.
@DT
Aug 15th, 2018 - 05:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0Good for you for helping reveal the depths of sordid souls like JB.
I will only pinpoint to some of the 'pearls' he dropped:
”...we had no idea that the CIA was talking to the Brazilian military (but) the fact they were there, never affected me.“
He is one of those who accepted the ”necessary“ elimination of those seeking a more fair social order, the excuse being ”Communism“ had to be avoided. Of course, under the wide umbrella of what these characters defined as ”Communists” you could find anybody with views that wasn't extreme right.
This is an example of what was wrong in Latin America during the post war.
@DT
Aug 15th, 2018 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Why, did you think you'd be in danger if you didn't?”....well, that was definitely a possibility. No I don't think they should have 'disappeared' for only criticizing the governmennt, but there was no way to know if their opposition was limited to that....and any one sensible made a point of not finding out.
“Seems strange to me that you complain about the cruelty of the criminals, but don't seem at all concerned your government was torturing people”....perhaps because you've never faced such a harsh reality leads you to believe that very different situations are comparable...one thing was a 'de facto' war going on between the military and those who opposed it through armed resistance, and criminals treating their perfectly innocent victims like crap....if you can't see the difference, no point in explaining...
“At least the criminals can be arrested 'n sent to jail.”...arrested ? where, here ? you joking ? every arrest attempt ends up in shooting....and someone dead.
““freedom was relatively high”....as I said, ”relatively”.....but enough to allow any sensible person to lead a normal life....work, enjoy yourself, travel, make money....
The views I held, besides being based on how I was brought up, were not revolutionary, nor
wanting power to transform the country into another Cuba...If you must protest, first make sure your cause is indeed worthwhile fighting for, then consider the pros and cons....many protesters are just part of mass manipulation, not really knowing why they are protesting ...ask the students who protested against Collor in 1992 what they think now....you'd be surprised how their views have changed.
@EM
You have no idea who I am, or what goes on in the depths of my soul.....but, for a change, instead of simply attacking me because you don't agree with me, why don't you defend your position when challenged ? you always run from debate, giving the impression you don't know what you are talking about...prove me wrong.
“one thing was a 'de facto' war going on between the military and those who opposed it through armed resistance, and criminals treating their perfectly innocent victims like crap”
Aug 15th, 2018 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So you believe your fellow students were engaging in armed resistance? Seems to me you made a point of not finding out more, so you could tell yourself they must be guilty of something other than speaking their minds, and weren't innocent victims of a repressive government.
“If you must protest, first make sure your cause is indeed worthwhile fighting for, then consider the pros and cons”
I think democracy and free speech are causes worth fighting for, and by staging a coup, the military set anyone who believes the same against them, not just communists. Besides, it was protests that eventually caused the military to hand power back to civilians, so they do sometimes work.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Aug 15th, 2018 - 10:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“were not revolutionary, nor wanting power to transform the country into another Cuba...” There is no evidence to support your fanciful narrative in the public record. The only source for this fiction is as follows:
“In the early 60s, …General Couto e Silva became the chief of staff at the Institute for Social Research Studies The leading inspiration at IPES was Glycon de Paiva. To avoid detection, IPES posed as an educational organization that donated money to reduce illiteracy. IPES' real work, however, was organizing opposition to Goulart and maintaining dossiers on anyone de Paiva considered an enemy.
Making the rounds of Brazil's major industrialists, de Paiva was able to appeal to their interests by translating his visceral hatred of communism into a simple message they could understand: Goulart wants to take away from you that which is yours. In this way, de Paiva was able to drum up close to $20,000 a month in donations.
One immediate target of IPES' anti-Goulart campaign were housewives, whom de Paiva recognized as being receptive to warnings about the threat that communism posed to the Brazilian family, and to the values of society in general. He set up women's societies in all the major cities. IPES organized a huge march against Goulart. In Sao Paulo 10,000 people joined a March of the Family with God for Freedom. Sao Paulo women presented a manifesto on behalf of Christian democracy, while at the same time the Archbishop of Sao Paulo forbade his bishops from participating in the march because he said it had been funded by the U.S. advertising agency, McCann Erickson.
Brazil and CIA by Peter Gribbin”. http://www.namebase.net:82/brazil.html
“The US can point to nothing even remotely threatening done by the Brazilian Communist Party”
http://www -personal.umich.edu/~lormand/poli/soa/brazil.htm
@TH
Aug 16th, 2018 - 05:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Excellent account. Generally, in Latin American countries, “communist” or “leftist” has been an umbrella term used to stigmatize and persecute anyone who dared to work for better social and economic conditions.
The story of João “Jango” Goulart is but a sad example of how opportunities were lost because of the determination of the wealthy classes, their armed sbirs and the U.S. to prevent any progressive movement from taking hold.
During his less than three-year tenure, Goulart led Brazil in a drive for a nuclear-free Latin America. The country's leadership on nuclear disarmament was eliminated by the military who deposed him early 1964.
During his brief time as president, Jango implemented education reform aiming to reduce adult illiteracy, proposed university reform and prohibited private schools, mandating that 15 per cent of the national income be directed to education.
Jango's tax reform mandated that profits by multinational companies with headquarters abroad could not be taken out but reinvested in Brazil. The income tax would be proportional to personal profit.
Jango's electoral reform extended voting rights to illiterate people and low-ranking military officers.
His land reform directed non-productive properties larger than 600 hectares to be expropriated and redistributed to the population. This measure would have been vital in a country where, like in many others throughout Latin America, the majority of the land was appropriated and divided into extremely large properties often used for speculation as opposed to production.
Jango's death in Argentina in 1976 - eight months after Videla's coup d'etat - was allegedly from a heart attack but no autopsy was performed. In 2000, former governor Leonel Brizola said both Jango and fellow former president Juscelino Kubitschek had been assassinated in the frame of Operation Condor.
And some still ask why Latin America is still so backward.
intervention on behalf of U.S.-based corporations preceding the coup. …his advocacy.. “caused the Brazilian regime to give ITT so much money for its run-down properties ..a joke in the Senate and among foreign-policy analysts, even for the executives of the ITT, to discuss how much had been milked out of Brazil by Kennedy's willingness to intervene.” …Ambassador Gordon's threat …inspired Goulart to agree to a settlement of U.S. $8 million.
Aug 16th, 2018 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0… U.S. corporations are participating as members of the Brazilian business syndicates “You don't negotiate with American business enterprise; you negotiate with the U.S. government.”
.. a large proportion of the native entrepreneurial class, had become managers of predominantly foreign firms.
A study of multinationals , create, local elites whose attention is distracted from the interests of their own people. …
.. into Brazil after WWII and that Brazilian industrialists and technocrats linked with …Their outlook was different from the liberal or populist orientation of elite groups that had come to power through elections….. As members of an int. org., but not about national independence. ..it was this sector that allied itself with the military and the U.S. to topple Goulart.
Likewise, Weid maintained that the coalition that conspired against Goulart was composed of Brazilians…, particularly to the U.S. multinationals. ..that a meeting in 1963 among reps of the coms and the ad industry, including the head of the ad co (McCann Erickson) The purpose was of participating against Goulart. ..chief legal counsel for American L and P, became involved. A friend of Bond, cultural attache in the U.S. Emb , he had maintained that the only hope was U.S. intervention.
…, U.S. businessmen in Brazil, were in contact with CIA , helped to organize and finance these demonstrations.
…. 398 firms listed by IPES as contributors, 297 were actually “US firms.”
United States Penetration of Brazil By Jan Knippers Black
@DT
Aug 17th, 2018 - 07:26 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“So you believe your fellow students were engaging in armed resistance?” (???)
I never said, or even implied that....just saying, if they were under the military's radar, it might have been for some reason other than just complaining....and even if any of the other students were interested in finding out more, what do you think they could have done ? go and ask the military what happened ? or perhaps, “50 years ago”, search for information on the 'internet' ??? Please don't put words in my mouth.
The reason I made of point of keeping my nose out of trouble has absolutely nothing to do with “so you could tell yourself they must be guilty of something other than speaking their minds”...d'you really think I felt I had to justify anything ?? don't know why you brought up such a silly thing ...I had no existential problems....maybe that's a problem of today's younger generations, such as looking for 'hair on eggs'..
“I think democracy and free speech are causes worth fighting for”....sure they are, but you are taking the events of 50 years ago out of context, and looks like you have been reading too much of TH's bs, someone who never experienced any of it, yet thinks he is an authority on went on here in the 60s. TH gets his info from leftist sites, and uses the consequences of the military coup as an excuse to ignore the causes. I don't expect him to ever get over his idelogical ignorance, but that is his, and only his problem. And we cannot forget, TH was far better informed than the CIA on Brazil in 60s... his posts are concentrated crap.
And as expected, EM has become his lap dog....EM (childishly) thinks he is “getting even” with me because I don't agree with most of his views on Lula....and his pathetic defense of wanna-be dictators........too bad...as it's absolutely useless trying to reason with lefties or champagne socialists....LOL.
@JB
Aug 17th, 2018 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I was referring to what you said earlier:
“No I don't think they should have 'disappeared' for only criticizing the governmennt, but there was no way to know if their opposition was limited to that....and any one sensible made a point of not finding out.”
You said you made a point of not finding out if they were doing any more than criticising, not that there was no way of finding out. Presume you could have spoken to them, before they disappeared, but didn't want to be associated with them.
And all very well to say the military was fighting armed resistance. There were armed groups, but not everyone they arrested was using violence, some were just criticising the government and/or protesting peacefully, and since the army were acting outside of the law, that makes them criminals themselves.
“d'you really think I felt I had to justify anything”
To be honest, yes. You think democracy and free speech are important, but you supported the military government that suppressed both. And you justified that by saying it was better than the alternative of a communist takeover à la Cuba, right?
“it's absolutely useless trying to reason with lefties”
Why d'you bother talking to me, then?
-----
The thread has closed on your other comment “Construction executives confirm bribe payments”, so I'll squeeze a bit of my reply in here:
RE Tom Perez, I was interested to learn that in the past non-citizens were allowed to vote in some US elections. I can't see Americans voting to enfranchise (legal or illegal) non-citizens any time soon, and for that reason I don't imagine the Democrats will be adopting it as a policy, even if a few support the idea. But I don't see the need for all the conspiracy stuff, anyway.
If Democrats want to increase their vote they'd be much better off trying to eliminate the shocking level of gerrymandering in congressional districts. Individual politicians from both parties would lose out, but it would be much better for the country as a whole.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Aug 18th, 2018 - 11:41 am - Link - Report abuse 0“TH was far better informed than the CIA on Brazil in 60s.”
I am simply laying out the evidence, if what I have shown is rebuttable, then where is the proof?
So there isn't any, otherwise you would be able to reveal it. So history is not on your side is it?
DT
“very well to say the military was fighting armed resistance.”
There wasn't any armed resistance until three years after the coup. Which certainly vanquishes the notion that the coup was a necessary preemptive.
@DT
Aug 18th, 2018 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You :“I was referring to what you said earlier“ i.e.,“No I don't think they should’ve 'disappeared' for only criticizing government, but there was no way to know if their opposition was limited to that”
Exactly. Other than outspoken criticism, I don’t know what they were up to (if anything at all), reason why I can’t agree with their disappearance if due to only criticism.
IF they were part of some armed resistance cell, I have no idea, therefore I have nothing to base myself on whether they deserved whatever happened to them. As I said, I kept away from them. I wasn’t there to get mixed up in politics, and far less with the military.
Sure, I agree not all who were arrested were violent, but they were fully aware they would be regarded as subversive…it was their personal choice, and not my problem. No one went on ‘peaceful’ protests, and might be good to remember, for good or bad, the military was government, and if it came down to the nitty-gritty, the Law.
Me : “d'you really think I felt I had to justify anything” ; You: “To be honest, yes”.
Sorry, I was in no way responsible for their decisions. On the other hand, neither was I out in the streets cheering on the military…thought the fact that I knew what was good for me, and knew I could get it by keeping my head down, was obvious.
You’ve been brought up in a democratic country (with ‘reasonable’ socialist principles ) but you seem to see communism through rosy lenses…you have no idea what it was, or how it was perceived by the free-world 55 years ago.
“Why d'you bother talking to me, then?”…to me, you are a European-style socialist…I’m OK with that - you are intelligent, educated, and quite rational, yet at times sound a bit green behind the ears…time will fix that.
Re T.Perez & the DNC, I was saying there were people who support his ideas….if they succeed or not, is a totally different story. Have to agree, a lot of US politics stinks....the country is not their priority...like here.
I'm not trying to say you were responsible for their decisions, or any other government's, only that you seem to be trying to excuse them from the shitty things they did.
Aug 18th, 2018 - 11:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Here's an account of a peaceful protest, by students among others, which you might remember since it says it was in the media:
http://theo1968.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-march-of-100-thousand-completes-45.html
As for the military being the law, they made lots of new repressive laws, but they still disappeared people (and killed 300 or so) rather than arresting them honestly and putting them on trial. They could have made whatever they were doing legal, including the death penalty, but they preferred to act clandestinely. And even if they had changed the laws, it wouldn't make what they were doing any less wrong. I guess some people thought it worth protesting against, even though it was risky.
As for communism, when I compared it to the military government that wasn't because I think communism isn't so bad; quite the reverse. I know what happened in Eastern Europe and Cuba, but I think the various dictatorships in Latin America weren't much better.
And i'm not really a socialist, because I think capitalism is the best foundation for the economy. I guess what I believe is closest to this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
I guess this is what the majority of 'lefties' support in Europe (and the US, too), rather than actual socialism. Unfortunately, Europe seems to be embracing populism instead right now, makes you wonder why the hell they want to turn us into Latin America. :(
“time will fix that”
Depends what you mean. It's obvious you had very different views to me even as a student. And I normally feel the same way as you when trying to talk to right-wingers. Guess most people think whatever they believe is obviously true and don't like anyone disagreeing.
“...only that you seem to be trying to excuse them from the things they did”.....Excuse them ?? NO...sorry, but if I understand 'excuse them' the way you probably meant it, my answer is definitely not....they made their choices (bad ones) and faced the consequences, whatever they were; Am not saying they deserved 'disappearing', whatever that entailed, as I don't even know to what extent they were involved in something deserving of that consequence ; I could only speculate based on their disappearance and what I had seen. The idea of trying to justify what they 'might' have done, in an attempt to 'excuse them', never went thru my mind.
Aug 19th, 2018 - 10:49 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Might be good to remember that the military did not take power for the sake of power, they reacted to a percieved threat.....and in the middle, some people got caught up in it, some guilty and others, to some degree probably only stupid. All I can say is that you are analyzing what went on here 50 years ago, probably based on a lot of left-wing literature on the subject (points of view of those who put themselves in a vulnerable position, so probably one-sided), and comparing it to today's very different reality.
“... I think the various dictatorships in Latin America weren't much better.”...Ok, they weren't, but again, remember the Brazilian military regime (being informed by also the CIA), was fighting what they saw as an attempt to install a dictatorship here...and I've said this before, with about 400 killed and or tortured, over 21 years, they were nowhere near as 'bad' as those in Argentina, and in Chile....or even present-day VZ, being closely followed by Nicaragua.
I didn’t remember the 1968 march (as in Rio, not SP), but I remember the AI-5..
“..not really a socialist etc…good, and I’m ok with social democracy as defined by WKPDIA.
By ”time will fix that', didn't meant “that” like a disease, but like after more experience you'll probably mold your views closer to the inevitable reality, and not so much on idealism.
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