MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Bolsonaro and Lula's candidate most probably will be in the October 28 runoff
Brazil’s far-right presidential candidate Jair Bolsonaro, in intensive care after being stabbed at a campaign rally, kept his first-round lead in an election opinion poll on Friday, but a leftist rival from the Workers Party (PT) made solid gains. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesExpecting the coalitions:
Sep 15th, 2018 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse 0- “Bolsonaro+Haddad”
- “Bolsonaro+Evangelists”
http://theconversation.com/brazilian-evangelicals-swinging-hard-to-the-right-could-put-a-trump-like-populist-in-the-presidency-96845
WHICH WILL BE BETTER?
Evangelicals, that's bad news for Brazil. The people who spend all their time preaching hate and attacking anyone who isn't just like them.
Sep 15th, 2018 - 12:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Marxist-Socialists that's worse news for Brazil. The people who spend all their time preaching hate and attacking anyone who isn't just like them.
Sep 15th, 2018 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse -1LOL
Are you an evangelical, Chicureo?
Sep 15th, 2018 - 02:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No I'm not, but I find them far less annoying than leftist idiots posting on this site.
Sep 15th, 2018 - 04:31 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Intellectual leftists I enjoy their contributions and actually agree with some of their views...
Glad to hear it, that would have been awkward. Pero no hay ningunos marxistas o socialistas aquí, a menos que EM se llamaría uno. TH cree que es un centrista. He conocido dos socialistas verdaderos y nunca predicaron el odio pero fueron raros.
Sep 15th, 2018 - 05:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@DT (using here to continue “Lula barred..”)
Sep 16th, 2018 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“What do people get out of prejudice?” Nothing. If it stems from ideas that don’t affect you, why let it ? But, disliking something that “can” affect you (negatively), sounds rational.
“..they get to feel better abt themselves because at least they aren’t as bad as *those* people” sounds like a strange exercise in psychology, like needing to compare yourself to someone else to feel ‘better’…Why can’t to like /dislike be an ‘absolute’ concept, i/o of ‘relative’ ? For ex, I love a good beef steak, not because it’s better than anything else, but because I enjoy it.
Bonding with people who share your values is understandable, ‘n may not even be a conscious process ; you don’t take a conscious decision to befriend someone… just happens.
“don't have much in common with regards to politics, but we sure do both think Terry is a idiot” ;
Not all my friends share my political views, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have things in common, besides 2 hands or 2 feet.
Re thinking TH’s an idiot, how many different political views are expressed on here, w/o resorting to bs ? plenty. Now how many people appreciate TH ? Only one, EM.
As far as (any) religion goes, every person should have the right to embrace its principles, or not. Its views shouldn’t become law. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
Although many think the US civil war was abt ending slavery, it was abt economics…proof of that is that even after it was abolished, white society in the north remained prejudiced, and the segregation laws were passed based on the belief that blacks were inferior…not true, just from a different culture.
The problem is not the loans, but the absurd interest charged. In 1 year yr original debt can double…and since the government relies on the banks, it is loath to interfere, despite the 100s of billions it too, pays in interest, every year…it’s not their money, so who cares? Resorting to loan sharks might be hazardous to yr health.
@JB
Sep 16th, 2018 - 10:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Prejudice is so common and universal I think there must be some advantage to it. It's just human nature to compare ourselves to other people, and how much we like something is often relative. I presume people were happy to have a black and white TV when that was all that was available, but you wouldn't want one now. I was very happy when we got a video recorder as a child, but I wouldn't be now, because there are much better alternatives.
“may not even be a conscious process”
Yeah, it probably isn't. And I wasn't thinking only of bonding with friends, but with a community in general - work colleagues, or neighbours, that you might have little in common with. IMO having a common 'enemy' makes people pull together.
“how many people appreciate TH ? Only one, EM.”
That's not actually true. Terry often posts in threads about the Falklands, or did when they were more common. He made the same kind of comments, just repeating a few quotes over and over, (usually taken out of context), but since he was saying what people wanted to hear, he got plenty of support.
“proof of that is that even after it was abolished, white society in the north remained prejudiced, and the segregation laws were passed based on the belief that blacks were inferior”
I disagree. Most people were prejudiced then, but just because you think some group is inferior, it doesn't mean you agree it is fine to enslave them, exploit them, beat them, break up families selling husbands and wives apart, or children away from their parents, and rape and murder them with impunity. If economics was involved, it was that the leaders of the southern states believed their economies depended on slavery and decided to secede when they thought the federal government was moving towards banning it. It wasn't an unreasonable fear, slavery had already been abolished in the northern states of the US, the British and French colonies and most of the Latin American countries except Brazil.
DT
Sep 17th, 2018 - 01:23 am - Link - Report abuse -2“So, having failed to ...and JB is NOT a liar.” in your humble opinion. Fortunately, my reliance is on what he has stated, which is an irrefutable fact. ...Also, you haven't given a link for your quote about JB“
I did originally, and there are dozens places I have used the citation since and he has never denied it's truth.
”What do to violate the highway code?“ Nothing which is why I was able to be acquitted.
”twisting everything..” Meaning my facts blow your opinion out of the water.
http://en.mercopress.com/2018/09/07/brazilian-leading-presidential-candidate-stabbed-and-in-serious-condition-attack-could-bolster-his-chances/comments#comment492533
YOU said improper citing makes you a fraud. You've posted those quotes 100s of times without links, and now I am asking you for one you won't provide it. You're condemned out of your own mouth.
Sep 17th, 2018 - 07:00 am - Link - Report abuse 0And you are the one giving your unsupported opinion. You are claiming JB is a fascist and have totally failed to support it. You haven't found even one quote where he says 'yes, I'm a fascist'.
What a coincidence - ALMOST everyone agrees to:
Sep 17th, 2018 - 09:22 am - Link - Report abuse 0https://i2.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Brasil-sem-Saida.jpg?resize=580%2C399&ssl=1
JB
Sep 17th, 2018 - 10:20 am - Link - Report abuse -3“we sure do both think Terry is a idiot”
Of cause you do because my factual exposer of your opinion driven narrative shows there is no tyruth to your claims.
DT
”You've posted those quotes 100s of times“ after posting links dozen of times. Without any denial by JB because that's the truth of the matter. So it's too late, that bird has flown ages ago.
”thus, he who keeps silent is assumed to consent; silence gives consent. In law, the silence of a party implies his consent.. A maxim of crime and consent. qui tacet, consentit-lit. he who is silent agrees. Thus, who keeps silent consents; silence means consent; silent consent is same as expressed consent; consent by conduct is as good as expressed consent. This is an implied term in law....”
SOMA'S DICTIONARY OF LATIN QUOTATIONS MAXIMS AND PHRASES
A Compendium Of Latin Thought And Rhetorical Instruments For The Speaker Author And Legal Practitioner
@JB
Sep 17th, 2018 - 10:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0I said it's human nature, but in many areas we really are competing with other people. In education, for jobs, even in dating. So it's hardly surprising we compare ourselves to those around us and worry about keeping up with the Joneses.
@TH
Fraud. This is yet another claim with no evidence:
“after posting links dozen of times”
Where have you ever posted the link?
DT
Sep 17th, 2018 - 11:00 am - Link - Report abuse -3“Fraud. This is yet another claim with no evidence” Hardly,ha,ha.
JB has never denied their truth, in fact the only comment he's made is to grumble that their shown of context, which is a clear admission.
JB ”Regarding the quote he keeps on posting,r...It can't refer to the 60s, 'cause then I wouldn't have said “I hope they DO take over”, referring to the future...it was probably some reaction to Lula's unhealthy friendship with the Chavez's and the Castros of this life, and the Foro de SP....but I'm sure TH can tell me in which context I said it, even though he prefers to ignore it (the context).”
http://en.mercopress.com/2018/09/07/brazilian-leading-presidential-candidate-stabbed-and-in-serious-condition-attack-could-bolster-his-chances/comments#comment492530
Still no evidence for your claim. You said if someone made a claim and didn't prove it, that meant they were a liar. No more pathetic excuses, no more squirming, no more sophism. According to you, you're a fraud and a liar.
Sep 17th, 2018 - 11:30 am - Link - Report abuse 0DT
Sep 17th, 2018 - 11:39 am - Link - Report abuse -3“Still no evidence for your claim.” Except for an admission by JB and his failure to deny aka 'silence; is golden In regard to scores of postings.
JB ”Regarding the quote he keeps on posting,...It can't refer to the 60s, 'cause then I wouldn't have said “I hope they DO take over”, referring to the future...it was probably some reaction to Lula's unhealthy friendship with the Chavez's and the Castros of this life, and the Foro de SP....but I'm sure TH can tell me in which context I said it, even though he prefers to ignore it (the context).“
http://en.mercopress.com/2018/09/07/brazilian-leading-presidential-candidate-stabbed-and-in-serious-condition-attack-could-bolster-his-chances/comments#comment492530
”If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.” Mark Twain
That in no way proves that you posted the link dozens of times, you fraud. I'm sick of your hypocrisy and excuses; I have nothing more to say to you until you post that link.
Sep 17th, 2018 - 12:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0DT
Sep 17th, 2018 - 01:57 pm - Link - Report abuse -2JB's admission that he stated what is claimed is sufficient. Therefore, what you have to opine is of absolutely no consequence.
The issue is done like dinner, too late you can't redeem your favourite cuddle toy.
“I have nothing...” Good, because There is no requirement for me to do anything more, as JB has verified my claim.
@DT
Sep 17th, 2018 - 10:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -1While it's human nature to compare one’s self to others, doesn’t mean you've gotta be prejudiced becos of some irrational belief you're better/worse ; I’d say self-esteem ‘n minding your own business takes care of that.
A person will get along (in a community) unless he goes out of his way to be obnoxious. Like TH. Regarding his posts on the F.I., that’s what I meant – he didn’t antagonize other posters - not even me - so his worst things of his personality didn’t surface.
Regarding the segregation laws in the US : the blacks were not enslaved (early 1700s) because they were thought to be inferior…it was because they were easy prey. They were regarded as property, ‘n not much changed for quite a while after they got their freedom (even in the North).
I implied (previous post) that ending slavery in the US, was not so much abt humanitarian reasons, but abt economics, which ended up throwing North (where slavery also existed, but to a far less extent) against South; Google “The origin and growth of slavery in America” – it explains what happened in the North & South, which led to the Civil War.
While slavery was at the bottom of it, it was the economic impact of abolition (for the southern states) that led to war, as Northern (free labor) states & Southern (slave labor) states became increasingly hostile. The laws, passed much later on, WERE based on prejudice, because by then, whites had come to see blacks as inferior. I think we’re saying much the same thing.
Re TH : Why should I deny having said “I hope they DO take over” ? if he didn’t use it out of context, it probably wouldn't mean what he is trying to imply, today. And not remembering what you had for lunch exactly 1 yr ago, doesn't mean you’re lying if you say you 'had' lunch on that day ;
You asked TH what he was ”accused” of (re highway code violations) - he replies “Nothing, because I was acquitted”...if acquitted, he WAS accused, but found not guilty. What can't the idiot understand ?
“I’d say self-esteem ‘n minding your own business takes care of that.”
Sep 17th, 2018 - 11:39 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It probably does, it's the people with low self esteem who want to find someone to look down on, so they can feel better about themselves.
I think the bigger difference with TH's posts on the Falklands is that other people mostly didn't challenge his bullshit. When Voice did, Terry acted just the way he does with you. And yet he got several upvotes, so someone must have agreed with his ravings.
Re the slaves, it does seem more likely they were regarded as inferior as a way for the owners to rationalise slavery, rather than the other way around. But, although the economic reasons for keeping slavery are obvious (for those benefiting), what economic reasons are there to want to abolish it? Everything I have seen suggests that those pushing for abolition were motivated by humanitarian reasons.
“What can't the idiot understand ?”
You should ask instead what he can understand: nothing. Since Terry was too useless and dishonest to give the context for the words that he's always quoting, I dug it out myself (ironically, by repeating those words 1000 times he's made it almost impossible for anyone to check whether you really said them). Here's the thread:
http://en.mercopress.com/2014/03/31/brazil-remembers-the-50th-anniversary-of-the-coup-that-led-to-21-years-of-military-rule/comments
Perhaps that will remind you what you were thinking.
A most likely Bolsonaro+Haddad+Evangelists Coalition:
Sep 18th, 2018 - 01:31 am - Link - Report abuse +1https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfgzV9dW0AEtahO.jpg
JB
Sep 18th, 2018 - 03:31 am - Link - Report abuse -3“Why should I deny having said “I hope they DO take over” Since you said it and an ordinary meaning is applied, it's perfectly clear what you wish to occur. If as you say I used it out of context, then it's just matter of you showing it context. But it's little late in the day in view of your acquiescence, which implies that you're not confident of achieving a satisfactory rebuttal.
DT
”When Voice did“ attempted every which way sophistry, and personal opinions. While I relied on the historical record, judges and judgements from the ICJ. With further support from other international tribunals, and legal writings on international law. Apparently of a sufficiency that he no longer attempts any further nonsense, concerning the Falklands legal position under international law.
”Here's the thread” there's nothing there that's going to help JB. Here's another of his pronouncements:
12 Jack Bauer; “..'Military dictatorship', ..history is showing,.. that it was good for Brazil
http://en .mercopress.com/2015/07/17/brazil-s-corruption-scandals-reach-lula-da-silva-probe-into-influence-peddling/comments#comment406602
@DT
Sep 18th, 2018 - 05:47 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Re slavery, “... what economic reasons are there to want to abolish it? ”
I would imagine that since slavery was not all that significant to the economy of the Northern States, they probably tried to rationalize the need to maintain it, and found little reason to...and might even have felt ashamed (?)... but even after the war, and slavery had been abolished, the blacks were not welcomed with open arms in the North...that was well before the segregation laws, but as far as the blacks were concerned, the whites already did not see them as equals....this sentiment grew until they decided to enact the laws to “keep the blacks' in their places”…(not nice but what went through their minds) ....
Thanks for demystifying “I hope they DO take over”…as quoted by TH, indeed out of context. But yes, I now remember why I said it (April 2014). In the first post I wrote “…it’s not too difficult to imagine what the PT has in store for Brazil …time will tell (context: 2014 presidential campaign coming up and an arrogant PT already showing its true colours…the infamous project of power). In the second post, I said, “ If push comes to shove (implying PT’s push for perpetuating themselves in power), “I hope they (the military) DO take over”. Quite simple, but TH used it, for as long as he could, trying to imply I was some right-wing nut. Thanks DT.
TH
feeling sorry for yourself, numb nuts ?
DT
Sep 18th, 2018 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse -2“You are claiming JB is a fascist and have totally failed to support it. You haven't found even one quote where he says 'yes, I'm a fascist'” You will do, and 'silence' is one and the same as failure to deny, with the usual consequences.
“I certainly don't agree with JB about the military dictatorship, as I have made perfectly clear.”
http://en.mercopress.com/2018/05/26/truckers-strike-crippling-brazil-despite-authorization-to-use-military-force-to-clear-highways/comments#comment488930
JB
“feeling sorry for yourself” Why would I feel that when I'm enjoying unbridled success?
Unbridled success at losing arguments...?
Sep 18th, 2018 - 06:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You actually enjoy that...?
Amazing...
Voice, V0ice, Vestige, Think et al, sock-puppeteer extraordinaire and mythology major
Sep 18th, 2018 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -3“Unbridled success at losing arguments...?” Bring me up to speed, as I know you had long and familiar experience at my hands.
@JB
Sep 18th, 2018 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“might even have felt ashamed”
Exactly. Slavery wasn't abolished anywhere for economic reasons, but because people knew it was wrong, and campaigned against it. It was still very profitable - for some people - hence the southern states' determination to keep it, even to the point of trying to quit the United States solely in order to do so.
And like I said, you don't have to be a paragon of political correctness to believe slavery is wrong. There are still racist people today, but I doubt even the worst of them would support slavery.
“it is not too difficult to imagine what the PT has in store for Brazil...time will tell.”
What did you think they had in store? You wouldn't have been predicting Dilma's impeachment or Lula going to jail back then.
As for Terry, you won't be surprised to know that he's lying about Voice. Probably best to ignore him unless he gets some self awareness (unlikely) and starts debating honestly.
DT
Sep 18th, 2018 - 08:17 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“Terry, ..know that he's lying about Voice”
Hmm, then why aren't you able to show where? No proof no truth.
@DT
Sep 18th, 2018 - 10:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In a nutshell, reason I said the Civil War was about economics, was the fact that the Southern Sates (and others) were determined to maintain slavery, because of the profit it afforded them...if slavery weren't an important economic factor in the South, why would they have bothered going to war ? The facts are clear, depends how you want to interpret them. And back then, don't think people thought of slavery in terms of right or wrong (morally speaking), so there's no point in comparing current opinions on slavery with those of 300 years ago.
Re the PT, you could see a pattern being formed, a project to consolidate power and to hang on to it for 30 years (at least)...based on the principles of the Foro de SP, which were to transform S.America into one big socialist state....Lula, the Castros and Hugo Chavez were the best of buddies, all with this common goal. After the USSR imploded, Castro needed (moral and financial) support from a new source to keep his dream alive...who better than Chavez and Lula, being leftist leaders to help ? Slowly but surely, as the two were elected, their plans came closer to fruition....Brazil financed a lot of them, through the PB/Odebrecht/BNDES corruption within & outside of Brazil. It's too extensive to discuss in detail, but it was easy to see the sh*t lurking on the horizon, thus my hate for Lula and my respect for the military.
Beginning 2014, I was just thinking that the neconomy was going from bad to worse. Dilma lied about everything, at least long enough to get re-elected. Impeachement was just a consequence, but could not be imagined at the time. Lula was already under investigation but nothing official had been divulged, at least nothing that could apparently hurt him, plus the fact everyone was aware that parliamentary immunity was the biggest obstacle for justice.
TH didn't mention “I hope they DO take over”...now, it's useless. He will never debate honestly because he doesn't know the meaning of the word.
@JB
Sep 18th, 2018 - 11:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I think you are the one splitting hairs this time. If they want to war because slavery was profitable, they still went to war over slavery. And the Union side wasn't motivated by economics, but by keeping the country together; later, ending slavery became a goal of the war.
But certainly people thought in terms of right and wrong back then, possibly more than we do now. This was published long before the US civil war, and their views had only become more common in the interim:
“But those, for whose emancipation we are striving,—constituting at the present time at least one-sixth part of our countrymen,—are recognised by the laws, and treated by their fellow beings, as marketable commodities—as goods and chattels—as brute beasts;—are plundered daily of the fruits of their toil without redress;—really enjoy no constitutional nor legal protection from licentious and murderous outrages upon their persons;—are ruthlessly torn asunder—the tender babe from the arms of its frantic mother—the heart-broken wife from her weeping husband—at the caprice or pleasure of irresponsible tyrants;—and, for the crime of having a dark complexion, suffer the pangs of hunger, the infliction of stripes, and the ignominy of brutal servitude. They are kept in heathenish darkness by laws expressly enacted to make their instruction a criminal offence.”
http://fair-use.org/the-liberator/1833/12/14/declaration-of-the-national-anti-slavery-convention
Re the PT, if you really thought Brazil was going to end up like Venezuela, then what you said makes more sense, though the army taking over would not necessarily end up the same way as before...
At any rate, things have not turned that way, and it's now evident that Lula never gave himself the kind of powers Chavez did. But there is a chance that Haddad could win the election, and he would probably want to get Lula out of jail - does the President of Brazil have the power to pardon criminals, like Trump has been doing?
JB
Sep 18th, 2018 - 11:43 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“honestly because he doesn't know the meaning of the word”.
Hmm, how come I'm able to expose the multitudes of your untruths then?
“I hope they DO take over” Where you expressed your wish for a return of a military dictatorship.
Here's some more of your heartfelt wishes.
12 Jack Bauer; “..'Military dictatorship', ..history is showing,.. that it was good for Brazil
http://en .mercopress.com/2015/07/17/brazil-s-corruption-scandals-reach-lula-da-silva-probe-into-influence-peddling/comments#comment406602
Brazil supportive of Mercosur ...
14 Jack Bauer; ”.....but there is still one thing that can save Brazil...the Military..
Brazil waiting for 50bn dollars …
50 Jack Bauer; “Military taking over again, ….. they did it to prevent Brazil from being handed over to the communists. ... the Military , I hope, would be there again to save Brazil
Brazil remembers the 50th anniversary of the coupe…
15 Jack Bauer; “..Am pretty sure that military are accompanying all this … I hope they DO take over...”
http://en. mercopress.com/2014/03/31/brazil-remembers-the-50th-anniversary-of-the-coup-that-led-to-21-years-of-military-rule/comments#comment318071
@JB
Sep 19th, 2018 - 08:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0The question about pardons has been answered, anyway. There's an article today saying Haddad promises not to pardon Lula if he's elected.
@DT
Sep 20th, 2018 - 01:15 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “Haddad promises not to pardon Lula if he's elected”:
Do U believe in a blatant “Electoral-Promise”? Long Live The Bolsonaro+Haddad+Evangelists Coalition [PLUS the rest of the crooks]:
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qYgR4PVikTc/V7Bg3I_bZ9I/AAAAAAAARX4/05o50h6olroJO20eNcIZJ-bSjFDv0LCOACLcB/s1600/edra.jpg
Jair Bolsonaro, Latin America’s latest menace
Sep 20th, 2018 - 10:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0He would make a disastrous president
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2018/09/20/jair-bolsonaro-latin-americas-latest-menace
@TH
Sep 20th, 2018 - 10:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Hmm, how come I'm able to expose the multitudes of your untruths...?” Hmm, exposed what, to whom ? only yr irrelevant opinions, to no one.
“ “I hope they DO take over”, Where you expressed your wish for the return of a military dictatorship”….and sooo what ? IF I had expressed my wish for a VZ style govt, with Lula as dictator, would that've made you happy ? Sorry numb nuts, couldn’t care less what you think.
@DT
Put it this way : slavery was very profitable for the South. Abolition would impact them economically. So, for the South it was a question of economics, for the North, about keeping the country together. And although some slave owners (including a few of the ”founding fathers”) might have thought it morally wrong, they took no steps against it. Effectively, that only occurred in 1862 with Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation, ratified by the 13th Amendment, in 1865...despite Garrison’s Declaration of Sentiments in 1833, 57 years after the Declaration of Independence in 1776.
With the amount of cash the PT had stashed away, and Lula’s manifest wish to perpetuate the PT in power (PT’s ‘project of power’), and with Dilma’s lies about the economy - that everything was just fine - at the beginning of 2014 (before Lula was charged with corruption), looked like nothing could go wrong for them.
The fact that it is “now evident that Lula never gave himself the kind of powers”, is not difficult to explain. He didn’t have to. The way things were going, he fully expected – 'n it was highly probable – to be able to keep on counting on Congress’ support (through corruption) until he virtually controlled it 'n it would be easy to maintain status quo....a PT dominated Congress, where anything he wanted would be approved. All done within the apparent limits of the law.
Last week Haddad refused to say whether he would (or not) pardon Lula ; now he’s saying he won’t. Do I believe him ? No way !!. Just politics.
Btw, couldn't reply re “Army Chief warns..”
JB
Sep 20th, 2018 - 11:54 pm - Link - Report abuse -2“irrelevant opinions, to no one.”
That is entirely your modus operandi. Mine has always been able to substantiate any historical claim, based media publications, or the opinion of experts. As you cannot show one post of yours that consists other than entirely of your unsupported opinion. “and sooo what” Thanks, for the confirmation that you are a fascist.
When they declared independence the US founding fathers wrote 'all men are created equal', but several of them owned slaves themselves. There's not many people willing to put their ideals ahead of money, and it's amazing how they can find a way to justify the most apalling things, as long as it benefits them.
Sep 21st, 2018 - 11:07 am - Link - Report abuse 0My impression is that the PT were mostly relying on their continued popularity to stay in power. Thus they procrastinated over the pension reforms that would have made them unpopular, but they appointed independent judges and allowed the LJ investigation to continue, although it threatened half the members of congress, including their own allies. If Dilma had suspended the investigation into Cunha, he might well have continued blocking her impeachment. If she and Lula had appointed more 'loyal' juddges to the Supreme Court, he would be a free man today, campaigning for the presidency and almost certain to win it. Trouble is, now they've learned that popularity is not enough. And just as bad, so have all the other parties. Who will dare to appoint an independently-minded judge or prosecutor in future? The next president will be looking for loyalty to their party or to themselves and nothing else.
@DT
Sep 21st, 2018 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Had Dilma not screwed the economy - which, despite “apparently” doing ok in 2010 (but was already 'begging' for a drastic reform of the pension system) - 'n broken the law in the process, in the futile attempt to cover up her bungling, she would probably have finished her term 'n Lula - or one of his “posts” (like Haddad, now) - would be the next president. So, the PT would be well on its way to consolidating power for the next 15 years.
How they thought they could ignore the essential reforms I don't know, as today, the deficit in the federal budget is due almost exclusively to the imbalance in the pension system.
The appointment of judges was not considered all that big a deal, as the last thing they counted on was being brought to justice. Until the L J appeared, political crimes paid off.
The PT only antagonized the L J after Lula became a suspect of corruption, as they, and all others thought it would end like so many investigations, with all charges being dismissed, but the new, better trained breed of feds 'n prosecutors, changed that. The PT was willing to go along with it while it only caught the small fish in its net. Besides every politician having their own agenda, adjusting it to suit their convenience, Dilma and Cunha were never buddies. If the PT counted on Lula's popularity to make all charges disappear, they were wrong.
Regarding the future appointment of judges, there are signs that Congress might try to take that prerogative away from the president, exactly in order to avoid 'biased' choices.
Congress is pretty rotten at the core, but at least the various tendencies within, could level the playing field a bit better.
@TH
You sure do resort to media publications, problem is that a lot of them are not reliable...the fact you believe what's posted about Lula, in his own site, proves that.....and since when does having a quote published, make an expert ? You're calling me a fascist makes as much sense as your irrational logic.
JB
Sep 21st, 2018 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“publications, problem is that a lot of them are not reliable” There isn't any that are unreliable otherwise you would be able to indicate them. This is from yourself, who is so sure your narrative is false, that your unable to find a single publication that supports your opining.
“You're calling me a fascist makes as much sense as your ...logic.” What do you think you should be called after stating this?
http://en.mercopress.com/2018/09/15/bolsonaro-and-lula-s-candidate-most-probably-will-be-in-the-october-28-runoff/comments#comment492596
@DT
Sep 21st, 2018 - 09:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0(2nd part of reply re “Army Chief warns..”. See 1st part under “Bolso undergoes surgery..”
“..spying is secret”…yes, as expected. No one would go-off message to the point of being conspicuous, but wasn’t the USSR part of UN’s creation ? Anyway, with the world becoming more ‘n more socialistic, why is it so improbable that it would slowly adopt a leftist slant ? Over time, concepts can (‘n do) change, and of late, haven’t seen them defend anything contrary to the interests of the global left.
Seems everybody pounds the right, as if the populist left were the only, or best, option. I don’t think the UNHRC would be so receptive to Lula if he weren’t socialist.
In 1979, Congress signed the “amnesty law”, granting amnesty to all who, between 1961-79, had committed political crimes, had their political rights revoked, including all civil servants of the 3 govt branches (extended to members of the armed forces, as the then executive branch) ‘n who’d been punished based on AI-5 (military’s anti-terror law), excluding those condemned for murder & terrorism. It resulted in the release of abt 100 political prisoners, the return of 150 banished, ‘n 2000 exiled.
After the PT took over, it questioned the law’s validity (rgdng the gen’l pardon for the military), but in 2010, the STF voted (7 x 2) to not revise it.
In 2002, Congress had approved a law (known as ‘bolsa ditadura’), to indemnify those who’d suffered at the hands of the Military (1964-85). As a result, in 2008 Dilma sued RJ, SP, MG, the 3 States where she was allegedly held ‘n tortured, ‘n received a small indemnification. I found no record of her being benefited directly by the Commission of Truth report (2011-14).
But, indemnifications paid out in virtue of the 2 laws, has surpassed R$ 13 billion.
In 1980 Lula was imprisoned for 31 days (for leading a strike), and although even he admits he was well treated, in 1996, FHC gave him a special pension, in today’s values abt USD 2,000/mth.
JB
Sep 21st, 2018 - 10:34 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“but wasn’t the USSR part of UN’s creation ? Anyway, with the world becoming more ‘n more socialistic”
“Paranoia strikes deep into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid…”
For What It's Worth, Buffalo Springfield
TH
Sep 22nd, 2018 - 10:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sure, the communist threat, the cold war, the Cuban missile crisis etc, was all and only paranoia....never existed....says Numb Nuts, the commie....For What It's Worth, you BF...
JB
Sep 22nd, 2018 - 10:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“the communist threat” You never faced any of it, you're a BS'ing paper tiger. I did as I was really involved in the Cuban Missile Crisis, and had to face the prospect that I, my family and country were facing imminent annihilation. Here's a summary of what actually occurred in Brazil. ”Brazil: How We Invent Communists Threats To Scare Ourselves
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lormand/poli/soa/brazil.htm.
From an real cold war warrior, not a want to be like you.
REF: “Haddad promises not to pardon Lula if he's elected”:
Sep 23rd, 2018 - 12:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://i1.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Indulto-a-Lula.jpg?resize=580%2C420&ssl=1
TH
Sep 23rd, 2018 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Cold war warrior” ? Don't make me laugh....is that what you call your having to clean out the barrack lavatories at 5 am, every day ? besides not being able to prove one iota of your fanciful claims, must give it to you, your imagination has no limits...
JB
Sep 23rd, 2018 - 04:29 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“is that what you call ...” Says one whom was an army reservist. The Army being the only branch of the armed forces that has a specific unit called the pioneer corp to deal with such specific matters. Of which is the only issue you raise when talking about the military. Since your preoccupation it's not difficult to discern what you did. I was an ECM specialist that serviced the AN/APT-16 Centimetric radar jammers AN/ALT-7 Centimetric radar jammers, and AN/APR-4 Wide (38-1000MHz) band receiver amongst others. Both first line, in the aircraft, and second line bench servicing.
“Fig 6. Typical EW Fit in No 18 Sqn’s Valiants.
The Valiant element subsequently acquired sole title to the squadron numberplate before moving to Finningley in 1958 where it was promptly renumbered as No 18 Sqn.” https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/Research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-28-Seminar-Electronic-Warfare.pdf
“not being able to prove one iota of your fanciful claims” Glad you asked as you will recall my showing of picture of me holding celebration tankard from this squadron. That's why opining doesn't work when rebutted by the salient facts.
TH
Sep 23rd, 2018 - 05:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Don't waste your time - and mine - telling your lies...I am not interested in your pathetic life.
JB
Sep 23rd, 2018 - 05:27 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Don't waste your time - and mine - telling” the truth as you're unable to refute it. Glad you asked as you will recall my showing of picture of me holding celebration tankard from this squadron. https://tlhill.imgur.com Thats why opining doesn't work when rebutted by the salient facts.
How easy it is to provoke you, Numb Nuts....can always count on you to take what I write and present it out of context.....btw, you know what you can do with your fake mug, don't you ?
Sep 23rd, 2018 - 06:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0JB
Sep 23rd, 2018 - 07:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“fake mug” So you opine, no proof no truth.
Facts win every time, leaving you revealed as the liar we all know you are.
Graphical manipulation does come under my area of expertise...and I reckon the mug is real..
Sep 23rd, 2018 - 11:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Just putting it out there...
@JB
Sep 24th, 2018 - 12:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0“The PT only antagonized the LJ after Lula became a suspect of corruption, as they, and all others thought it would end like so many investigations, with all charges being dismissed”
Really? After the Mensalão investigation locked up Dirceu and several other big names in the PT, and nearly brought down Lula's government? They were hardly small fish. It's odd that Dilma never tried to block the LJ investigation if she knew it could eventually reach Lula.
“The appointment of judges was not considered all that big a deal, as the last thing they counted on was being brought to justice.”
It will be in the future. Not sure if having Congress appoint them is really an improvement, since the only thing they all share is the desire to steal and get away with it. You'll likely get less party loyalists, and more judges for sale to the highest bidder.
Re 'Army Chief warns', I don't suppose you remember any of the bits supposed to have been inserted by the secret communists? Maybe you could find the article again, so we can see if there is anything plausible there? Also, the world isn't becoming more socialistic, though maybe South America is. With the fall of communism the world is considerably less socialistic than when you grew up, and right now right-wing and populist ideologies seem to be more and more popular in Europe and the US.
“I don’t think the UNHRC would be so receptive to Lula if he weren’t socialist.”
We could find out by looking for similar situations with leaders of different ideologies, and seeing what the UNHRC says about them. I'll have to do some research.
Re the amnesty law: “excluding those condemned for murder & terrorism”
Why weren't the military who committed murder (or ordered it), also excluded? Seems a little one sided. Besides, Dilma already went to jail for what she did, unlike the military, but I guess that's not true of all her colleagues? And why would Lula get a pension for only 31 days in jail? Was there more to it than that?
@DT
Sep 24th, 2018 - 06:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I’ll repeat what I’ve implied before – as long as Lula was “preserved”, the PT was willing to sacrifice others, counting on a lenient justice system.
Btwn “nearly” (bringing down Lula’s govt) ‘n “actually”, there was a big difference…in 2007 (‘mensalão’), Lula stitched together a deal with the PMDB to spare him (thus, Temer, VP 2010). Had Dilma been more diabolical ‘n not the idiot she is, she might’ve acted more forcefully to protect Lula (which she did 2016)…anyway, there were times when Lula / Dilma disagreed, ‘n Dilma would then try to show some independence…I dunno.
Regarding higher court judges, the idea is that the Judiciary submit 3 names, then Congress decides….can’t be any worse, ‘n more likely to avoid extremes…but what do YOU suggest ?
I’ve already said I have no idea what ‘secret communists’ might have inserted…anyway, it was a joint-effort, where some no doubt had more influence than others. In the economist’s article there was no reference to specific matters. In 1989 communism was on the way out, and socialism, as seen in EU and in SA, are two quite different realities.
As to the recent right-wing influence in EU, & US, do you think it will spread, or die out ? do you think it might be a reaction of people fed up with the left-wing ? Re “…looking for similar situations with leaders of different ideologies”, don’t what you’ll find, but suspect you won’t find it defended anyone considered right-wing.
Regarding the amnesty law (’79), don’t know if any members of the military (eventually accused of murder, or who got involved in shootouts/ killings) were tried, were pardoned…or not. As to individual terrorists who might have been identified, tried ’n rotted in jail, for specific crimes, can’t remember any off-hand. Dilma served 3 years, ‘n alleged she never participated in any attacks. Despite not applying to him, as he was not a terrorist, Lula manipulated his inclusion in the category of “those who suffered…” (nb : FHC was an ex-commie).
I'm surprised the PT members were so willing to sacrifice themselves for Lula. That's quite some loyalty.
Sep 24th, 2018 - 11:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Dilma could have made Lula a minister much earlier, when it wouldn't have been so suspicious, so either he really thought the investigations wouldn't endanger him, or she refused. Dunno if that seems likely or not. Looking at the judges they picked, Lula picked more 'loyal' judges, who probably weren't at the top, Dilma seems to have been more impartial, maybe she was more idealistic than Lula.
Giving Congress only 3 names to choose from does sound better, it should limit the opportunity for bias. I can't think of anything better, anyway, someone has to choose the judges.
The article sounds very vague, not even giving any examples. Without evidence I'm inclined to think it's just a conspiracy theory.
“do you think it might be a reaction of people fed up with the left-wing ?”
Partially. I think the emphasis on rights of 'minorities' has caused some people to feel their needs are neglected. If you aim help at groups rather than individuals then some people will always fall through the cracks. Plus in Europe and the US there has largely been a concensus on financial matters, in favour of capitalism, trade deals, a freer market, so the parties were competing mostly on social issues. As long as that was working, the situation was stable, but the financial crisis changed that. People might have turned to the left, which traditionally was in favour of tariffs and preventing outsourcing of jobs to foreign countries, (and to some extent this has happened in the UK with the rise of Corbyn), but I think some felt the left had abandoned them by focusing on social issues instead of their traditional financial ones. Plus the recent influx of migrants gave a big boost to the right instead.
What do you think?
“FHC was an ex-commie”
Really? I didn't know that. I guess his politics must have changed quite a bit before he became President?
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