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Argentina complains coming Falklands’ military exercises and missile firings

Wednesday, October 10th 2018 - 06:24 UTC
Full article 78 comments

Argentina has protested the coming military exercises in the Falkland Islands and has complained to the British Embassy in Buenos Aires, and anticipated it will notify the situation to the United Nations and the International Maritime Organization. Read full article

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  • gordo1

    Annual nonsense from Argentina - nobody will take notice and the exercises will take place WITHOUT incidents.

    Oct 10th, 2018 - 07:07 am - Link - Report abuse +8
  • Brit Bob

    UNASUR also complains -

    Falklands Military Exercises:
    The Pro Tempore Presidency of the Union of South American Nations (UNASUR) condemns and rejects the military exercises that the British government intends to execute for ten (10) consecutive days, from October 19 to October 28, 2016, in the Argentine territories of the Malvinas Islands, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands and the surrounding maritime areas, trying once again to undermine and intimidate the full right of sovereignty that the Argentine Nation has over these territories that the United Kingdom of Great Britain has illegally occupied by the imposition of military force. (Comunicado Oficial, Presidencia Pro Tempore, De UNASUR, Caracas, 15 Oct 2016).

    UNASUR & The Falklands (1 pg) :https://www.academia.edu/37544554/UNASUR_and_the_Falklands

    Oct 10th, 2018 - 09:26 am - Link - Report abuse +6
  • Lord Loon

    Perhaps the MOD should go and find where the Argies are having their stupid invasion wargames, and fire some there instead. It'd add a bit of realism, and to finish up it could include the bit where they all run away and eventually surrender in disgrace.

    Oct 10th, 2018 - 09:45 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Islander1

    Argies behind the times as usual.Exercise limited to internal territorial waters(as always has been) as usual due to short range weapons only and all those who need to be notified have been notified.

    Oct 10th, 2018 - 09:49 am - Link - Report abuse +9
  • Konrad Kurse

    What Argentina refuses to realise is that it's their aggressive attitudes towards the British Falklands that makes military exercises necessary.

    As long as they continue to refer to the Falklands as “Argentine territory illegitimately occupied by the United Kingdom” - the Malvinas Lie - the Islanders and Britain will see them as a threat.

    We could have a peaceful resolution to the dispute that's fair to all parties tomorrow - all Argentina has to do is drop their false claim. Or better yet, take it to the ICJ, where the case can be decided on the facts.

    We all know why they don't want a fair outcome.

    Oct 10th, 2018 - 10:43 am - Link - Report abuse +10
  • golfcronie

    Argentina is like a baby “ mummy I want ” Get over yourselves you are never going to get sovereignty over the FALKLANDS.

    Oct 10th, 2018 - 03:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Don Alberto

    The usual fools dancing the usual dance.

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 01:00 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    Konrad Kurse

    ...and what in your opinion is a fair outcome, if the case was decided on the facts...?

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 01:10 am - Link - Report abuse -7
  • James Marshall

    Using modern day principles including the right to self determination you mean Voice, well I would say the Islanders get to choose, that is the fairest way, or let the ICJ decide if you think Argentina really has a case.

    But bleating about it to all and sundry except the one that can make a decision would suggest they are somewhat lacking in their own beliefs with regard to the facts, wouldn't you say Voice.

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse +8
  • Pete Bog

    The presence of a tiny deterrent force at MPA is saving the Argentine military a lot of money and hassle by deterring anyone from attacking them and the region. Ungrateful sods. With the few Super E's they've got, if they did have possession of the islands what would be the defending force, Tucanos? Pucaras? Perhaps the 4 remaining Fighting Hawks? Would they be able to spare any of the handful of Super E's which are not dedicated fighter aircraft? This would make the region insecure and like it or not the UK has Atlantic territories from the North to the middle too the South. (A long line of territorial integrity) At least with their chosen government, the Falkland Islands are guarded by competent forces including Ground to Air missiles (both fixed and portable ), and by Typhoons.The RAF and the Chilean air force provide the South Atlantic with a measure of deterence to stop any outside countries from causing trouble. Because let's face it Argentina are providing nothing for the defence of the area save a few ships. And they complain when we're doing them a favour!

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 01:26 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • GALlamosa

    Never confuse activity for achievement. The Argentine Government complains every year to show the people some activity, but they achieve nothing. And that is the case with the vast majority of Argentine actions over the Falklands. All fluff, no outcome.

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 02:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Voice

    James Marshall

    So you are saying we should disregard the historical facts and just use modern day principles...?
    ...but doesn't this dispute originate from the 1833 land grab...? How is that not relevant...?
    Do you think the Chile/Bolivia war was not relevant in the recent ICJ case...?

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse -7
  • James Marshall

    Off of whom did they land grab, is Spain submitting a claim to East Falkland?

    Funny, you always tell us it wasn't a case of conquest as GB was not at War with Argentina, so in that case Voice, no it is not relevant, but let's not stop at 1833 lets go back another 50 years, where is Argentina claim in the 1760's.....

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 05:39 pm - Link - Report abuse +6
  • Voice

    Did you seriously write “off of”...
    WTF does that even mean...?
    Vacant possession, the Argentines didn't have to sling Spaniards off the Islands they had already left and were not coming back...as there was no historic or otherwise claim by the Brits to anything more than West Falkland...the Argentines had every right to chance their arm and claim it...
    What was not right was the Brits taking the whole lot off the occupiers...
    ...or “off of ”the occupiers... if you are a Yank...
    You can go back to the very first sighting if you like...but the Brits never set foot on East Falkland before 1833...remind me again where Stanley is...

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 07:25 pm - Link - Report abuse -7
  • James Marshall

    Remind us all where the SSI and SG are and who has set foot on them etc etc. but yet they claim those as well....

    You are so right though Voice about taking things off the occupiers, Argentina should hand back their land to Spain and Spain should hand that land back to the Amerindians. That would be fair and 'right' according to your watertight logic.

    Or is it just the 'English' speaking parts that can't live down there.

    So are Argentina going to hand back any of their 'Stolen' territory form the last few centuries.

    Oh and there is nothing linguistically or grammatically wrong with 'off of', just informal in use. WTF? , are we text talking now......

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 08:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +6
  • Terence Hill

    Voice, V0ice, Vestige, Think et al, sock-puppeteer extraordinaire
    “but doesn't this dispute originate from the 1833”
    Thats why the international law from that time, which is the only applicable law precludes any legal claim by Argentina.

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 09:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +5
  • Roger Lorton

    If there had been an ICJ/International Tribunal sitting in 1833, in the context of international law as it was understood in 1833, I have no doubt that they would have recognised Spanish title to East Falkland Island (Soledad).

    Spain had never raised its flag over the Western Islands and, in 1811, on departure, claimed just the one island - Soledad. The United Provinces (Argentina) also never raised its flag over the western island and before 1829 all its references to the archipelago were to Soledad. As a result the - old admittedly, but sole - British claim was almost undoubtedly still the best concerning West Falkland. That said, if West Falkland had become terra nullius at some point after 1774, then it remained so until settled by Britain after 1841.

    All that being so, it was Spain that was usurped in 1833, not Argentina.

    Spain confirmed its claim to the USA in late 1833 but did not protest to Britain and by 1863 had come to recognise British sovereignty having acquiesced to the take-over.

    Argentina was a trespasser between 1826 and 1831 and again between October 1832 and January 1833. The USA broke up the first trespass, and Britain the second (mostly because of fears that if the USA had to do it again, they would claim the archipelago).

    Argentina was never in the game.

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 10:40 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Voice

    So what you are saying is the UK was the trespasser in 1833...and still is...

    How does that work...Argentina a trespasser, but the UK a usurper...
    I see it's very easy to misinterpret the facts...
    Argentina usurped Spanish territory...the United Provinces...the Falklands were part of the United Provinces administered from B.A....Spain complained to anyone that would listen, but the fact remained, they lost it...
    The UK usurped territory that had already been usurped by Argentina from Spain...
    The facts cannot be changed...they happened, the territory was claimed then it was colonised years before the UK even thought to steal it...

    James Marshall....

    I always knew you weren't a Brit....if one waits long and patiently enough, folk will always make a mistake...“off of ” indeed...
    Give Australia back to the Aborigines...

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 11:14 pm - Link - Report abuse -6
  • Terence Hill

    “A State which has ceased to exercise any authority over a territory cannot, by purely verbal protestations, indefinitely maintain its title against another which for a sufficiently long time has effectively exercised the powers and fulfilled the duties of sovereignty in it.''(Theory and Reality in International Law, de Visscher, 1957, p201).

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 11:26 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Roger Lorton

    Spain acquiesced Voice - which perfected our title. Argentina's limited trespass was not sufficiently long for an adverse possession. 30 years is the suggested minimum. Which makes 1833 to 1863 all the more relevant.

    Oct 11th, 2018 - 11:53 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Voice

    That is the whole crux of the matter...if Britain hadn't intervened Argentina would still have the islands one can't achieve a possession of 30 years if someone has booted you off the territory...
    Konrad Kurse was looking for a fair outcome...I think Argentina as a new and independent country were well and truly shafted by a mighty powerful one...
    No different to the way Russia recently did to Ukraine...
    ...but that was an outrage....wasn't it...?

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 12:10 am - Link - Report abuse -6
  • Roger Lorton

    Crux? The crux of the matter is that Britain had claimed from 1765. There was no way that a cocky little newcomer was going to interfere with a dispute between Britain and Spain. Not that Argentina was a country back then. Little in the way of effective central government and no ability to control the territory claimed, 1860 would be a better date for Argentine statehood.

    “Getting shafted'” was the game of Empire.

    Argentina was simply never in the game.

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse +5
  • Voice

    A country doesn't need to be recognised by everyone to be a country...Argentina was recognised by the UK enough to make treaties...before 1833...
    ...and another thing, I think your West Falkland not under Spanish control doesn't hold water...
    What were those papers left by the French on the highest hill on West Falkland discovered by the English...A Claim...?
    If the French claimed that island then it was transferred to the Spanish...along with East Falkland...
    Britain was always late to the game...second gets no cigar...

    Terry
    “A State which has ceased to exercise any authority over a territory cannot, by purely verbal protestations, indefinitely maintain its title against another which for a sufficiently long time has effectively exercised the powers and fulfilled the duties of sovereignty in it.''(Theory and Reality in International Law, de Visscher, 1957, p201).

    Are you talking about when the English abandoned the islands to the Spanish...how many years was that...remind me...

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 12:49 am - Link - Report abuse -6
  • Roger Lorton

    I'm not talking recognition, I talking about a State only coming into being when it has an effective central government and control over all the territory it claims - something that Argentina did not achieve before 1860.

    The French note in the bottle was found on East Falkland island, not West Falkland and France abandoned its claim.

    Spain came 3rd and Argentina, if at all - 4th. No cigars for them either then?

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 01:02 am - Link - Report abuse +4
  • James Marshall

    Voicey...what you think you know and what you actually know are two very different things (as you clearly show on this thread on several fronts).

    You can make up whatever opinions and presumptions you want about me, I honestly do not care. If you feel you have one over on me, well, good for you.

    But, what about Argentina handing back the land they occupied, you seem quiet on that front.....no opinions on that? Just the 'English' need to make amends, Argentina are just the poor victims.

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Voice

    On that same day in the Falkland Islands, one of MacBride's surveying parties find evidence of occupation.
    “.. the boats, having finished the survey of the west side, returned through Carlisle Sound and having landed on the east side of it, upon Mount B., the highest on the island, officers found a bottle containing enclosed papers which had been left by some French officers and others who had been on that part of the island in the beginning of 1765.” 416

    I can only go on what was written and that is what was written above...pretty ambiguous...
    Carlisle Sound is the West side of East Falkland one would be traversing the length of it to survey the West side...
    Not sure how one can finish surveying it then returning through Carlisle Sound then end up one the east side without passing Berkeley Sound...
    Unless one travelled from Port Egmont through Carlisle Sound to the end then travelled around to the East side and then returned the way you came without bothering to take the shortest route back to Port Egmont past Berkeley Sound...
    If one had surveyed the west side of West Falkland from Port Egmont one could then return through Carlisle Sound in a circular trip and land on the east side of West Falkland, which is what I assumed the above description meant...

    Give it a rest Skip...no Englishman or Brit educated in England would ever write “off of” and then try to justify it as accepted grammar...
    My wife says “off of ” and no matter how many times I tell her it's just “off” she thinks it's right...she has done it all her life...(A Yank)

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Terence Hill

    “I can only go on what was written and that is what was written above.”
    “February 17th, Bougainville begins the construction of Fort de St. Louis on East Falkland. With no wood available, the buildings have stone and 'grass-box' walls, with rushes as a roof. Cattle are released.
    March 21st, a small pyramid is constructed in the center of the fort. Inside is a silver plate and a sealed glass
    bottle containing names, ranks and countries of both ship's companies. An inscription giving details of the expedition, its leaders and the latitude and longitude readings are set into one side of the pyramid. Two wooden medallions with the bust of the French King, and the Arms of France are set in the two other faces.40
    40 Pernetty 1771 p.240”
    Falkland Islands:South Georgia & the South Sandwich Islands - The History by Roger Lorton
    https://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/falkland/timeline.pdf

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 08:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • The Voice

    #yaaaaaaawn..

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 10:31 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Voice

    Different thing altogether and not on top of a mountain...
    Also looking at a map the highest mountain on East Falkland Mount Usborne would surely be more accessible from the West side of the island than the East and would be clearly seen from the Sound...
    Perhaps if the full report was available it might read differently...

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • James Marshall

    What, no English man, are you sure......

    'Hey you get off of my cloud' or was that 'Hey you get off my cloud'

    Oh and of course William Shakespeare an Samuel Pepys both used it , maybe they were Yanks or Aussies.....

    But hey the Grammar police may not like it's use, but I can assure you I am 100% English born and educated.

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 10:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Terence Hill

    JM
    “the Grammar police may not like it's use”
    It is a maxim of equity that “The law respects form less than substance, equity looks at intent, not at form“ ”The law does not concern itself with trifles“.
    ”It used to be we thought that people who went around correcting other people's grammar were just plain annoying. Now there's evidence they are actually ill, suffering from a type of obsessive-compulsive disorder/oppositional defiant disorder (OCD/ODD). Researchers are calling it Grammatical Pedantry Syndrome, or GPS.“ illinois.edu/blog/view/25/76120
    “Grammar Pedantry Syndrome” is a form of OCD in which sufferers need to correct every grammatical error.” twitter.com/uberfacts/status/218151002707206145
    “A pedant is a person who is excessively concerned with formalism, accuracy, ..

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 11:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    Huh...a song padded out to match the beats in a bar...
    or maybe a sonnet to adhere to the rules..
    You ain't no Brit...
    No Brit would write that....now, a Yank or a Canadian...
    If you are writing “off of ”...what education...?
    Quick check to see if the phrase“ off of ”has ever been used in Mercopress before...
    Nope...

    Terry

    You are missing the point...as usual...
    If I was the Grammar police......“the Grammar police may not like it's use” ...there shouldn't be an apostrophe in “it's”
    ;-)))))

    Oct 12th, 2018 - 11:48 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Terence Hill

    Found the reference at
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2505721.pdf?refreqid=excelsior%3A0b1d4c766bb1b190e4af1c7185dc4575
    Titled: Chapter III. The Falkland Islands
    Author(s): Vera Lee Brown
    Source: The Hispanic American Historical Review, Vol. 5, No. 3 (Aug., 1922), pp. 387-447 Published by: Duke University Press
    Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2505721.pdf?refreqid=excelsior%3A0b1d4c766bb1b190e4af1c7185dc4575
    searched using “found a bottle containing enclosed papers”

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 12:30 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    Thanks for that Terry...it appears that Roger Lorton is wrong and I was right, the evidence of occupation was found on West Falkland...
    The description by McBride only makes sense if it was West Falkland...

    Like I said Roger...your UK rights to West Falkland holds no water...the French had already been there...and left evidence of it...

    “On arrival at Port Egmont in January, 1766, McBride had
    lost no time in following his instructions to complete as rapidly as possible the inspection of the islands which Byron had begun. Within a month of his arrival he had sailed round the group and had then commenced a minute and systematic survey of the land. As he began on the west side and as the interruption of the long southern winter hindered the work it was not until the very close of the year that any trace of French occupation was discovered. On November the twenty-fifth, 1766, a survey party discovered on the highest mountain in the West Island'55 a bottle containing a paper bearing evidence of the French in that part of the island in the early part of 1765. The storeship with the admiralty map of the Bay of Acaron had already arrived when this party returned to Port Egmont, and with its assistance an expedition to the east revealed the French settlement on December the third.”

    Your History of the Falklands is WRONG!!!

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 01:04 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Roger Lorton

    “.. the boats, having finished the survey of the west side, returned through Carlisle Sound and having landed on the east side of it, upon Mount B., the highest on the island, officers found a bottle containing enclosed papers which had been left by some French officers and others who had been on that part of the island in the beginning of 1765.” [Macbride to Stephens]

    East side of Carlisle Sound? That would be East Falkland. Simple enough.

    https://www.alamy.com/english-a-french-map-of-the-falkland-islands-from-1827-it-identifies-port-egmont-still-but-puerto-de-la-soledad-has-ceased-to-be-marked-it-uses-an-interesting-mix-of-predominantly-french-and-english-names-often-giving-alternative-names-in-the-two-languages-the-sound-is-marked-as-detroit-falkland-or-carlisle-sound-for-example-it-also-marks-the-point-in-1820-that-the-uranus-was-shipwrecked-off-the-islands-32-falkland-islands-map-1827-image189291948.html

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 03:32 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Terence Hill

    “Like I said Roger...” Looks like Rodger is in fact correct, as I have no reason to doubt him. I have always found him to be both meticulous and principled. But, thank you both for the footnote. Regardless, even if had been on Western Falkland. I believe legally it wouldn't have diminished Briton's claim in any way. As how the parties have acted would be the crux.

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 05:00 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Roger Lorton

    The French left. Never came back and other than an attempt in 1801 to claim an 'establishment' in the Malouines - from Britain, they never pursued any claim. All Spain got was a receipt from the St. Malo Company for some buildings and equipment ( and yes, Spain did come to believe that they'd been conned - but then Choiseul was a tricky character).

    Now, according to the Argentine lawyers Pena y Pena, if Spain did not get a legal cession of sovereignty from France, then Spain's whole claim is in doubt. And it is. Now where would that leave Argentina's pretensions?

    As I keep repeating, there was a dispute between Spain and Britain and Argentina were never in the game.

    Just for Voice - https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53121866n/f1.item.zoom

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 05:30 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Terence Hill

    I looked at Vera Lee Brown's publication this morning and it specifically states.
    “a survey party discovered on the highest mountain in the West Island 155 a bottle..” p.400
    Regardless, even if this is correct, while an interesting bit of minutiae it doesn't change the legal picture one iota.
    I agree that Argentina has no claim under any known criteria.

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 09:51 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Roger Lorton

    Brown was writing in the 20th century while Macbride was there in the 18th but I'm sure he knew the difference between East and West. Brown uses the same quote but apparently didn't.

    “... returned through Carlisle Sound and having landed on the east side of it...”

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 10:37 am - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Terence Hill

    Yes 1922, its what thought but hadn't checked Macbride's original yet.
    Thanks again Rodger

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 10:45 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    Don't try and twist English Roger, you know fine well that isn't saying the East side of Carlisle Sound...
    It is saying they surveyed the West side and returned via the East side through Carlisle Sound...you are so full of Shit.
    There's a very good reason they never went to Berkeley Sound on that occasion, it's because they already had a map of where the settlement was in Berkeley Sound and when they did go on the third they climbed the mountain near it first to view it...
    It is now clear why the British never claimed West Falkland...the same reason they never claimed East Falkland...it had already been claimed and the evidence found...

    Why don't you give me all your research Roger and let me rewrite an impartial and unbiased history...;-)

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 10:50 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Roger Lorton

    “.. having landed on the east side of IT...” Sounds like the east side of Carlisle Sound to me.

    Seems that you are doing all the twisting Voice but hey..... take it up with Macbride ;-)

    Britain claimed the archipelago in 1765 - although they thought it just the one island at that time.

    All my research? Feel free - https://falklandstimeline.wordpress.com/

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 11:00 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Voice

    Perhaps Brown unlike you did his research properly and read the whole report and not part of it...
    Besides when one reads a paragraph that is poorly written, because it is written by a naval seaman and not an Oxford Don it is best to look at the logic of it..
    No one would describe the West side of East Falkland as the “West Side” and then in the same sentence describe it as the East side of Carlisle Sound...
    ...and why would they mention returning through Carlisle Sound when they were already in Carlisle Sound if they were on the West side of East Falkland...
    Brown is smarter than you Roger...Brown is capable of understanding English even when it's poorly written...
    Also have a guess where the highest mountain on West Falkland is closest to and accessible from...Carlisle Sound...

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 11:19 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Roger Lorton

    His? Vera?

    The passage is quite clear to all except a Scot apparently. They had surveyed the western side of Carlisle Sound, were returning through it, when they landed on the eastern side of Carlisle Sound. Simple.

    Vera Lee Brown may well have been bright, but not bright enough it seems. Neither are you.

    “... the highest on the island...” That would be the eastern island.

    Now get over it as the bottle is hardly relevant. France did not complain to the British Government, left the islands, and never claimed sovereignty over the whole again. Spain came in a poor third.

    You used to be brighter Voice ....... age or the beer getting to you?

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 11:27 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Voice

    I read that passage years ago and quite clearly understood that it meant West Falkland without even being aware of Brown's input...
    9 out of 10 people would read that passage the way I read it...
    You just don't want it to mean West Falkland because it means the French were there and it must bother you that Britain never ever claimed West Falkland...
    What was in the bottle...“we claim this island along with that one as well...”
    Surely McBride kept it and logged the contents...
    The French didn't just leave the islands they transferred (sold) their rights to Spain...

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 11:41 am - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Roger Lorton

    You really do know how to make yourself look a little rabid :-)

    9 out of 10 who? Scots? Americans? Sadly Mount B is not identified on any of the charts that flowed from the survey.

    Where do you think Byron was when he reclaimed the Island(s) for Britain in 1765? East or West?

    If the contents of the bottle were kept I have found no reference to them in the archives. What I can tell you is that Macbride's final account was never finished following a dispute with the Admiralty over the number of 'supernumeraries' that he'd taken. He said he was following orders, but apparently he couldn't produce those either.

    The French did just leave the Islands - once Bougainville had received compensation for his expenditure.

    France didn't sell any rights. Spain was quite adamant about that. Spain insisted that its rights had flowed from Tordesillas and that therefore the French were trespassing. All the Spanish got from the French was a company receipt for the expenses. Bougainville was neither a Minister of France nor carried any papers as its representative. He just represented the St. Malo Company. Choiseul was a cunning barsteward.

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 11:57 am - Link - Report abuse +3
  • Terence Hill

    “Brown unlike you did his research properly.” Its Vera incidentally so slow down Tiger, Brown has contradictory statements to wit: “On the 25th November, the boats, having finished the survey of the west side, returned through Carlisle Sound and having landed on the east side of it, upon Mount B., the highest in the island, officers found a bottle containing enclosed papers which had been left by some French officers and others who had been on that part of the island in the beginning of 1765.”
    So the one that would be considered the authentic would be the original “Stephens to MacBride”

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 11:58 am - Link - Report abuse +2
  • The Voice

    Zzzzzzzz

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 12:27 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • Terence Hill

    The Voice
    http://en.mercopress.com/2017/01/24/dancing-for-falklands-mla-gavin-short-takes-on-argentina-s-most-mediatic-personality/comments#comment460628

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    You really do know how to make yourself look like an amateur....

    I don't doubt for one second that you have read no more of Mcbride's report than what has been quoted by other people...
    Ole Vera didn't have an axe to grind in 1922 and I dare say she went to the archives to read the reports...
    So based on no other supporting evidence than your interpretation of a quote you are calling Ole Vera an idiot and a liar...casting all her research into doubt and claiming your “internet” research to be superior...
    Fairly obvious what Mount B would stand for...Byron, McBride was finishing Byron's survey I dare say the highest peak on West Falkland can be seen from Port Egmont, but not accessible
    unless travelling across miles of bog...
    Also we now know that when Byron was busy claiming the islands the French were already there...so that was irrelevant...
    We also know that the only reason the word Sold was avoided was, because it would cast into doubt the previous Spanish claim to the islands...
    You have quite clearly indicated previously that the Spanish claim to East Falkland would stand even though it was transferred from the French...
    It is quite clear to me that the French had been on both islands first and the British had only secured Saunders island and Port Egmont...
    Your interpretation is nonsense...
    “.. the boats, having finished the survey of the west side, returned through Carlisle Sound and having landed on the east side of it, upon Mount B., the highest on the island

    If they had just finished surveying the West side why then refer to it as the East side of Carlisle Sound....
    Surely an intensive survey that took months would involve landing on it...
    One would simply write ”having finished the survey of the west side, upon Mount B the highest on the island officers found....etc
    It's more of your mysterious disappearing fictitious Settlers...theory no mention of them by Vera...
    You shouldn't make claims you have no corroborating evidence to support...

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 01:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -4
  • Roger Lorton

    You really are a twit Voice - and I believe that you just proved it. TTFN

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 02:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Terence Hill

    “don't doubt for one second..” Not even that much as it is just a “bit of minutiae it doesn't change the legal picture one iota.”
    So you didn't read that Brown has two contradictory statements. Both east and west, so the only truth she's not clear herself.
    Besides her's is hearsay, so to be accurate you have to go to the original. I'm certain that MacBride as qualified navigator, knows his west from his east. If you're looking for reason for her contradiction. It could be that she is writing for The Hispanic American Historical Review, which as a secondary source may have as well its own agenda.

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 02:25 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    A professional Roger would admit that the statement is ambiguous at the very least and would also admit that it could easily refer to West Falkland and logically would and realising that previous unbiased research took a totally different stance would admit that further research is necessary...

    Terry.... McBride is mistaken he is just explaining that he finished surveying the West side of the island (West Falkland) and returned to Egmont through Carlisle Sound and landed on the East side of the island which is in Carlisle Sound...and found evidence...etc...
    Look at a map if he surveyed West Falkland where would he finish...either way north or South....Carlisle Sound.
    Also to survey the East side of it or land on the East side he would have to pass through Carlisle Sound...

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 02:40 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • Roger Lorton

    Voice

    To my mind the statement is not in the least ambiguous. It refers to the survey of what is now known as Falkland Sound and the discovery of a bottle on the eastern side of the Sound. You can try to make it appear otherwise but you will fail. The words of Macbride are clear enough.

    “.. the boats, having finished the survey of the west side (of the Sound), returned through Carlisle Sound and having landed on the east side of it (the Sound), upon Mount B., the highest on the island (East Falkland), officers found a bottle containing enclosed papers which had been left by some French officers and others who had been on that part of the island (East Falkland) in the beginning of 1765.”

    There really is no ambiguity. To suggest that Macbride was mistaken is risible. He was there.

    Now I shall leave this nonsense. It is of no consequence anyway. The French left, and gave Spain nothing. Spain's rights came about through their garrison on East Falkland island from 1767 to 1811. France effectively acquiescing to the take-over during that period. It is suggested that 30 years is sufficient for an adverse possession and so by 1797 France had lost all its rights. That France recognised the British as having rights over the western islands however, is clearly made out by the events of 1801.

    I believe that in 1833, any tribunal would have ruled in Spain's favour with regard to East Falkland Island (Soledad). Not Britain's. Not Argentina's.

    Britain usurped Spain but then Spain went and did what France had done - nothing.

    Matter settled.

    Now I have better things to do than waste time with your convoluted distortions.

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 03:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +4
  • Voice

    “Now I have better things to do than waste time with your convoluted distortions.”

    Course you have...some proper revision and research, there is no doubt that there was previous reports that would clear the matter and why bother leaving two bottles on the same island...
    ”“February 17th, Bougainville begins the construction of Fort de St. Louis on East Falkland. With no wood available, the buildings have stone and 'grass-box' walls, with rushes as a roof. Cattle are released.
    March 21st, a small pyramid is constructed in the center of the fort. Inside is a silver plate and A SEALED GLASS
    BOTTLE CONTAINING NAMES, RANKS AND COUNTRIES OF BOTH SHIP'S COMPANIES. An inscription giving details of the expedition, its leaders and the latitude and longitude readings are set into one side of the pyramid. Two wooden medallions with the bust of the French King, and the Arms of France are set in the two other faces.40

    “.. the boats, having finished the survey of the west side (of West Falkland) returned through Carlisle Sound and having landed on the east side of it (the Island), upon Mount B., the highest on the island (West Falkland), officers found a bottle containing enclosed papers which had been left by some French officers and others who had been on that part of the island (East Falkland) in the beginning of 1765.”

    There are probably no more reports after that one because McBride never surveyed East Falkland because by that time he had received a map of Berkeley Sound showing there was a French settlement he then proceeded to discover it and then the sequence of events after that...How could he have surveyed East Falkland knowing there was a settlement on it and given the amount of time it had taken to survey West Falkland...

    I'm glad you think it is of no consequence to prove that your opinionated history of the Falklands is based on facts, because quite clearly it is based on your interpretation that conflicts with other reputable versions...

    Infallible Roger...

    Oct 13th, 2018 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -3
  • The Voice

    Whatever…. doesnt make an iota of difference to the current status of the Falkland Islands. Have I missed an apostraphe, mispoke or mispelt - who cares?

    Oct 14th, 2018 - 12:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +2
  • Voice

    You are right it...doesn't...

    Oct 14th, 2018 - 12:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -1
  • James Marshall

    You are right, it...doesn't...

    Oct 15th, 2018 - 03:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +1
  • Think

    Esteemed Mr. Voice...

    Just a short utterance from beautiful Moray...

    Real nice of you helping that Lorton lad out of his blinding Engrish haughtiness problem... ;-)

    ( And also helping that Turnip “The Voice” to place (and spell) his
    “ apostr”(a)“phes” correctly ;-)))

    El Think...

    Oct 16th, 2018 - 07:32 am - Link - Report abuse -2
  • The Voice

    Speaking of turnips.. I Think I just spotted one. But, it hasnt made an iota of difference. ;-)

    Oct 16th, 2018 - 02:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    Mr. Think...

    Moray ain't more than a stones throw away I suppose, but not the best of weather, although not too bad the last couple of days...
    Roger will dwell on it for a while, then he will probably acquiesce to sensibility and add a footnote to his blog out of respect for the old girl's formidable credentials...

    BROWN, VERA LEE: Appointed for a study in the archives of England, Spain and Mexico, of the relations of England and Spain as colonial powers in the Eighteenth Century; tenure, twelve months from July 1, 1931.
    Born September 21, 1890, in Canada. Education: McGill University, A.B., 1912, A.M., 1913; Bryn Mawr College, Ph.D., 1922 (M. Carey Thomas European Fellow, 1920-21; Helene and Cecil Rubel Foundation Fellow, 1923–24); University of London, 1921.
    Lecturer in History, 1916–20, McGill University; Professor and Chairman of Department of History, 1922–23, Wilson College; Assistant Professor of History, 1924–27, Associate Professor, 1927–31, Professor, 1931—, Chairman of Department, 1929—, Smith College.
    Publications: Anglo-Spanish Relations in America in the Closing Years of the Colonial Era, 1922; Studies in the History of Spain in the Second Half of the Eighteenth Century, 1930. Articles in Annual Report of the Canadian Historical Association, American Historical Review, Hispanic American Historical Review.

    Could we both be so wrong...I seriously doubt it...
    A twit I ain't...

    ps... Roger I meant to write McBride isn't mistaken not “mistaken”...just guilty of bad prose...

    Oct 16th, 2018 - 04:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Esteemed Mr. Voice...

    The Moray I'm writing from is quite a loooong stone throw away I reckon...
    Some 10.000 km SSW...
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Moray_-_Qechuyoq.JPG

    ;-)

    Oct 16th, 2018 - 08:37 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Wow, that looks really cool, and mysterious. Did they manage to repair the damage it mentions in the Wikipedia article?

    Oct 16th, 2018 - 08:50 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mostly repaired today....

    Sadly for the general public..., some bureaucratic turnip decided to restrict the access to the lower terraces...

    One of the best “Erlebniss” of this site has always been the quick descent from the chilly windblown top terrace to the almost opical bottom one...

    Oct 16th, 2018 - 09:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    That's a shame. It's not much of an experience when everything is fenced off and restricted, with a gift shop outside, but it's kind of a problem inherent to tourism, that too many people coming ruins whatever they are there to see.

    Oct 16th, 2018 - 11:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    Mr. Think

    Well ...what was I going to think if Moray is mentioned to me, I didn't know there was two...
    ...and it's not like you haven't been fishing up in that neck of the woods before...;-)
    It reminds me of the Ephesus amphitheatre amongst the hills like that...

    Oct 16th, 2018 - 11:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Mr. Voice...

    Sorry for having misled you.., lad...
    Couldn't resist the conversational trick paralellism of them two beautiful Morays...;-)

    By the way..., fishing has been just great in my Peruvian neck of the wood this year...(Huayhuash)

    Regards...
    El Think...

    Oct 17th, 2018 - 07:14 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    Little need to dwell on simple facts.

    “There was, as the colonists had suspected, a narrow strip of land, 'one side being with range of a rifle shot from the other', barring what would have been an easily navigable east to west strait. … They climbed a nearby hill and deposited a sealed bottle containing a note of their presence.” [Dunmore 2005 p.120]

    That area is now know as Lafonia.

    Vera Lee Brown appears to have made a mistake.

    And if old man Think is on your side - you just know that you are in the brown and smelly :-)

    Oct 18th, 2018 - 08:33 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    The Brummie Ex-Copper says...:
    ***” And if old man Think is on your side - you just know that you are in the brown and smelly :-) ”***

    I say...:
    Mild...?

    Oct 18th, 2018 - 11:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    Think - I was feeling generous. Glad to know that you are still alive as you've been quiet of late.

    Truth be known, I suspect that the French were dropping bottles all over the place. Should have been prosecuted for littering. Perhaps Martin-Allanic will be enlightening?

    Oct 18th, 2018 - 10:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    Rodge...

    I didn't mean “Mild” as in “feeling generous”....

    I meant “Mild” as in the brown and smelly beverage you Black Country Hobbits luuuuv to drown yourselves in... ;-)

    Oct 18th, 2018 - 11:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    That only proves they put a bottle on a hill in Lafonia...
    They probably also put one on the highest Mount in West Falkland...and McBride found it...
    You still have no proof that Vera is wrong and that you are right...
    Convenient there was no more reports from McBride's survey...
    Did you study in the archives of England, Spain and Mexico too....?

    Oct 19th, 2018 - 12:23 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    You have no proof that Vera is right, particularly as she uses a quote that shows the survey team landed on the east side of the Strait.

    Do grow up Voice.

    Oct 19th, 2018 - 01:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    Since the Midlands is the Shire, Birmingham must be Mordor, which would make Roger an orc. ;)

    Mexico is a nice place for a holiday, as long as you avoid the bits controlled by drug cartels, and you can look at the archives while you're there. How about it, Roger?

    Oct 19th, 2018 - 08:12 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Roger Lorton

    Birmingbrum is built on a hill for sure - Mount Doom without a doubt DT. I was wondering where you were.

    A question for Voicy - who does love flogging a dead horse - Q. What was Lafonia called before it was called Lafonia?

    May be a clue ;-)

    Oct 19th, 2018 - 08:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Think

    TWIMC...

    Rodge is quite shorter than them tall FIA Orcs...

    Ergo Rodge is..., evidently..., a Hobbit or in the best of cases..., a Dwarf...

    Oct 19th, 2018 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0
  • DemonTree

    @RL
    I visited Birmingham a few times when I was at university, perhaps you were still working there then. I'm in the East Midlands now, used to work in Nottingham, but I'm actually from East Anglia.

    @Think
    FIA? How do you know his height anyway? Facebook isn't a dating site that includes vital statistics.

    Oct 19th, 2018 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse 0
  • Voice

    What was... Lafonia called before it was called Lafonia?
    The highest Mount on the island is not in Lafonia anyway...

    Oct 19th, 2018 - 10:41 pm - Link - Report abuse 0

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