MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Lula, Dilma and several ministers formally accused of receiving corruption money
Brazil has opened criminal proceedings against former leaders Lula da Silva and Dilma Rousseff for allegedly receiving bribes with money diverted from state-owned oil giant Petrobras. The Workers Party (PT) of the two ex-presidents has strongly denied the charges, calling them a “scandalous maneuver” with partisan motives. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesAs long as they + the other crooks are not FORCED to return the stolen wealth; this is just yet another FARCE!
Nov 24th, 2018 - 11:23 am - Link - Report abuse +1http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RDWMX7bUpDI/Ru54n2ktc0I/AAAAAAAAAy4/oIdAEw96dic/s400/AUTO_myrria.jpg
@:o))
Nov 25th, 2018 - 03:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0My heart bleeds for them, sniff, sniff....on the good side, they'll be able to hold hands again....very soon.
@JB
Nov 25th, 2018 - 12:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0From “Bolsonaro nominates...”
Re the doctors, it seems unlikely Brazil would want to give 3/4 of the pay to the Cuban government, or prevent them bringing their families, so that must have been something Cuba insisted on, and would object to changing. Also, B caring deeply about whether the doctors have their families with them seems a tad less likely than him wanting to stop giving money to Cuba, no?
“what did I work against that upsets you ?”
I just meant by voting for B, and the fact you seem to like him more each day. If I voted for Corbyn, who used to hang out with the IRA and PLO, and wants to hand the Falklands over to Argentina, would it bother you? People say his party will stop him doing anything too extreme...
“what results are you talking of, in Brazil”
I actually wasn't thinking specifically of Brazil, but more in general. The quota laws are the most obvious designed to help minorities (or the majority if the quota is for 'state school educated'). But I don't know any minority Brazilians to ask them what the various governments did and whether it helped. What I was thinking of was stuff like the abortion bill in Argentina. Macri was personally opposed, but allowed it to go ahead. For supporters that's a lot better than a president who agrees with you but does nothing.
Re the media, bias is to some extent in the eye of the beholder. When we looked at Krugman's article you thought it was biased, but I couldn't see any objective reason to think so. The Guardian is left-wing, what do you think of this?
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/24/brazil-records-worst-annual-deforestation-for-a-decade
Also, it was you who told me about B's speech, and you had no problem with his plans so no reason to be biased. What did he say about using the A-T law?
And if B cancels all the government money spent on advertising then I don't have an objection. I understood he was planning to take money away specifically from media that criticised him.
To be FAIR to all:
Nov 25th, 2018 - 01:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 0https://scontent.fplu3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18556225_1022126744587354_8271362736758080000_n.png?_nc_cat=103&_nc_eui2=AeGJztQvAps2nehsKoLyevjRjyluWIy5343g_bTlFCHya5ROSs03WxY4kGhXeyHW1WBcUtFlPwuM36X6qY79P-qp3PMLuA6zyfpyADWqhHH6Nw&_nc_ht=scontent.fplu3-1.fna&oh=73fd8aec5da77fc4d825af03bd0f437f&oe=5CA71679
@DT
Nov 25th, 2018 - 08:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“…something Cuba insisted on…” EXACTLY ! B wanted to ensure Cubans were indeed capable, ‘n if so, earn same as Brazilians. It’s obvious why Cuba objected.
As to reuniting the families, it had been raised before, 'n Cuba refused, even to ‘visits’. Can’t discard the possibility B thought Brazil was paying Cuba too much – which it was, given the 25/75% division – but B’s demands could’ve corrected that….a bad idea, as far as Cuba was concerned.
Upset because I voted for B ? Isn’t that my 'democratic' right ? anyway, I’ve alrdy explained why I ended up doing so. And it’s painfully clear yr media ignores the ‘good’ things B says. You only read what it wants you to, not necessarily, the ‘facts’. Time will show B is not the right-wing dictator the left insists he is/will be.
Rgrdng his choices for top positions, I couldn’t have chosen better myself. At last, choices based on qualification. If you voted for Corbyn ‘n he were elected, 'n then he actually tried to give the FI to ARG, that WOULD piss me off, but tt you had voted for him, not my problem. B hasn’t even been sworn in, but the ‘left’ is doing its damndest to discredit him.
A minority or ‘quota’ law should only be passed if there is absolutely NO other option - not the case of quotas in College, as the correct solution would be to drastically improve the public schools. In BZL many temp measures become permanent because govt refuses to do the right thing.
”Bias is to some extent in the eye of the beholder”…It wouldn’t need to exist if the MSM ignored ideology ‘n fake news ‘n stuck to the “facts”.
Re Guardian article : Why will B make it worse ? initially, his attempt to unite Environmt /Agriculture faced resistance, by ALL. His intention was to create a harmonious relationship between the two, rationalize decisions 'n avoid conflicts. Anyway, what happened under the PT/Temer is not his doing.
Article exaggerates on the pessimistic forecasts, to make B look bad….I'd call that 'bias'.
“Isn’t that my 'democratic' right ?”
Nov 25th, 2018 - 11:04 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sure, but I don't have to like it.
“And it’s painfully clear yr media ignores the ‘good’ things B says.”
When you repeated the 'good' things B said they didn't sound good to me; no need for the media to hide anything. Plus they reported B planned to merge the Ag and Env ministries, and reported when he changed his mind. Same with several other issues, so what do you think they are hiding?
“His intention was to create a harmonious relationship between the two, rationalize decisions 'n avoid conflicts.”
Considering they have opposing aims, combining them seems like a bad idea to me. You'll just create a conflict of interest, and given the agriculture ministry is to be headed by the leader of the farm lobby, we all know which would lose out.
The Guardian article explained why they think B will make deforestation worse. As well as planning to merge the ministries, suggesting the environment is a low priority for him, it said “he has frequently attacked what he calls the “fines industry” of agencies such as Ibama, and wants to allow mining in protected indigenous reserves – some of the Amazon’s least-destroyed forests.” Plus there were the comments by his ministers, and it says he planned to withdraw Brazil from the Paris climate deal. Is all that true?
“Rgrdng his choices for top positions, I couldn’t have chosen better myself.”
Does that include Mourão, Augusto Heleno, and Azevedo, and Ricardo Vélez Rodriguez as Minister of Education, who wants to 'preserve traditional values'?
I don't know enough about Brazil to know if the quotas are a good idea, but it makes sense they should be a short-term measure and improving schools the long-term plan. Cambridge has a sort of unofficial quota; they are aiming for 64% intake from state schools, and they do outreach efforts to encourage applications from underrepresented schools and students, but acceptance is meant to be based on merit. Do you think that would be better?
@DT
Nov 26th, 2018 - 09:09 am - Link - Report abuse 0Q:
“what results are you talking of, in Brazil”
A:
https://i0.wp.com/humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/301116CHARGE-01.jpg?resize=480%2C480
@DT
Nov 26th, 2018 - 04:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0”“Isn’t that my 'democratic' right ?” Sure, but I don't have to like it.
Well, if people do, 'n have the right, to like/ dislike things, 'n the majority of Brazilians decided they'd had enough of PT, 'n left in general, synonymous w/ corruption etc, accept the fact, try finding impartial sources that actually address what's happening here, don't be so quick to believe what the 'leftist media' has to say about anything 'not-left'...While you attack B, based on what you see in yr left-wing media, I defend him based on information from several local reputable sources, plus what I frequently see /hear in his interviews...to me, you're being negatively influenced without being given all the facts.
Have never seen anyone so criticized before they've even taken over...not to mention the attacks criticize whatever he does, AND doesn't do... the left seems desperate to keep the anti-B movement going, at ANY cost.
Re intention to merge Env /Agric, then changing his mind, shows he's open to listening. But his initial intention (merge), to avoid conflict, it's high time they fought for a common cause, ie, good of Brazil, not their own belly-butons.
The Guardian's article speculates, without much basis, as if things were going beautifully now and B will screw it up...where's their crystal ball ? Withdrawing from the Paris climate deal, nothing decided...wait until 'n IF it happens.
His choices, YES. Why are these men -IYO - less capable/ competent that our “well-intentioned” politicians ? The protests all stem from the fact that the old MO will be changing, and they don't like it. Did you see Haddad's choices, had he won ?
IF the quota system is necry “short-term”, OK, but here they're going further, increasing the % every year. Not sure, but presume difference btwn UK State/private schools, is less.
Some colleges (in USP), will soon be 50% quota, which means that a non-black, with good grades, will be displaced by a black, with bad grades. Yes, merit is fairer.
“PT, 'n left in general, synonymous w/ corruption” Whereas the reality is thus:
Nov 26th, 2018 - 09:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The scale of corruption is breathtaking: The current president, four former presidents, and more than 100 federally elected politicians total are either in jail or under investigation....There is a saying in Brazil that jail is only for pretos, pobres e putas, or blacks, poor people or whores,” explains Paulo Sotero, director of the Brazil Institute at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholar”
http:// nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/12/brazils-political-chaos-explained.html
Brazil's Corruption Fallout | Council on Foreign Relations
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/brazils-corruption-fallout
I don't know the majority of Brazilians, so it's not the same thing. I guess this is why you should never discuss politics or football; you might end up gaining a friend - one who you can never agree with.
Nov 26th, 2018 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There was a positive story about B today; apparently the Governor of Roraima wanted to create a return program for the Venezuelan refugees, but B refused. Funny that Latin America is so much more sympathetic to refugees than Europe or the US - perhaps the very similar cultures makes the difference. Besides, when they reported B decided not to merge the ministries, that wasn't critical but more relieved. My biggest concern would be putting the head of the farmers lobby in charge of environment; that's a great plan if you want to see half the Amazon replaced by ranches and soya fields. Having her run the farm ministry is different.
(We have a combined ministry, by the way, and everyone hates them. They piss the environmentalists off by culling badgers to help the farmers, and the farmers by making them follow environmental regulations. Plus they're trigger happy; Defra think nothing of slaughtering valuable livestock to prevent the spread of disease, including beloved pets and the literal sacred cows of Hindus.)
As for the Guardian, since you haven't accused them of spreading fake news, I assume the things they listed are true? In which case, I share their pessimism that an already bad situation is likely to worsen.
“Why are these men less capable/ competent”
I'm less worried about their competency than their intentions. You may be perfectly happy with military rule, but I think it's something to be avoided, and I'm suspicious of these ex-generals being given great influence. And 'traditional values' means traditional classism, sexism, and homophobia to me, which children get enough exposure to already without them being pushed in schools.
Re education, quotas don't seem like the best system.
@TH
What are you talking about?
@DT
Nov 27th, 2018 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “You may be perfectly happy with military rule”:
That's what ultimately is important; isn't it?
After all; it looks like during the twenty or so years of the Military Regime, Brazil MUST have witnessed prosperity.
@DT
Nov 27th, 2018 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse 0To understand why the majority voted as it did, is to be familiar with what happened here over the last decade. I gave up discussing football yrs ago…can’t ‘discuss’ anything with fanatics.
Re B’s putting the Roraima governor in his place, is just one of the many...
” - perhaps the very similar cultures makes the difference”…not only the culture, but the similar problems most LatAm countries share.
Re Env/Agric, seems the general preference (in Congress), b4 ‘n now (altho wasn't B’s), is to maintain 2 ministries with antagonistic views. Which ‘might’ mean that on that front, not much will change.
The Guardian, while being sympathetic to the left 'n critical of the non-left, it is not lying, but is, as they say here, “placing the ember under ‘their’ fish”.... See their “…news met with dismay by environmentalists who warned that deforestation was likely to increase under B” : just because environmentalists are pessimistic about the future, based on the past, which has nothing to do with B, they lay it on thick….btw, were they so critical of the deforestation under the PT ? why is it a noteworthy problem to them, only NOW ? perhaps to make B look bad ?
“I'm less worried about their competency than their intentions”…and what do you KNOW of their intentions ? what've they actually done, which might be reason for concern (only for some), other than state they'll combat crime ‘n corruption ? why the concern ?
Again, just to get the record straight, military rule btween 64/85, while not totally democratic, was the lesser of two evils (the other being communism), and what do you know of, to say “..it’s something to be avoided” ?
Afaic, ‘traditional’ values means honour, family, decency, not all this politically correct liberal crap.
“...pushed in schools” ? do you prefer that gender-ideology be pushed instead ?
TH has the nerve to post a link from Sotero - which isn't incorrect - yet he believes that Lula was an island of honesty in a sea of corruption. Cute.
Football is exactly what politics shouldn't be: the total commitment to a team, often even if the players cheat or commit crimes, and the arbitrary hatred for an opposition who are really no different.
Nov 27th, 2018 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re the Guardian, this is their 2014 article about deforestation:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/oct/19/amazon-deforestation-satellite-data-brazil
And I found more from 2013 and 2015. You can say if you think they are sufficiently critical or not, but at least you agree they are not lying.
“what've they actually done”
Mostly, just threatened military intervention if things didn't go the way they wanted. Terry's article on Heleno wasn't too flattering, but I'd like to see a more neutral source.
“do you prefer that gender-ideology be pushed instead ?”
Assuming that means teaching kids that men and women are equal, it's okay to be gay, and the importance of consent, then yes.
And now I have room to talk about education. Yes, the difference between state & private schools in the UK must be less. Some schools are pretty awful but it's mostly due to the area - places with lots of crime and drugs, pupils with problems at home or unaddressed learning difficulties or whose parents just don't care about education so they disrupt the class and stop others learning. My school wasn't too bad but it made such a difference when we moved to sixth form and everyone who wasn't capable and motivated left.
There are no official quotas here but universities are pressured to take more students from state schools, deprived areas, etc. Besides academic results which don't differentiate enough, the top universities use interviews, which private school pupils seem to do better in.
In your universities, how many poor/black/state school educated students get in without using the quota? Or are they automatically included? I can see how quotas could be beneficial (not 50% though), but they need to improve lower education so the kids aren't so far behind in the first place.
@DT
Nov 28th, 2018 - 10:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “Football is exactly what politics shouldn't be”:
Name of the game [old]:
https://amaieski.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/sinovaldo-professores-e-aposentados.jpg
@DT
Nov 28th, 2018 - 03:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At least soccer players aim for a common goal, politicians only 'pretend' while persuing their own objectives.
Guardian's 2014 article sounds OK...but what draws one's attention are the 'facts' : 402 sq km deforested Sep '14 alone ; 'n at least mentions Dilma lowered priority on environment, 'n tt she “postponed official figures until ”after“ the election”...to get things in perspective, maybe (the more recent article) could've mentioned what happened in 2014, but it chose to focus on future pessimism, despite Bs attempt to find a solution (merge Ministries ?) to rationalize interests of both sides. Another point, accdng to Greenpeace, the timber is sold to “unwitting buyers in EU, US, China..”. “unwitting” ? more like too greedy to care. If there were no buyers, it would stop.
In Feb 2018, STF ratified an earlier decision to grant amnesty to those who, contrary to the rules of the “New” Forest Code, had deforested large areas irregularly up to 2008...this just encourages more deforestation 'n promotes impunity.
Last year Temer announced the extinction of a large reserve (RENCA), to benefit nat'l 'n foreign mining companies....as u can see, environment has never been a priority in Bzl.
“Mostly, just threatened military intervention if things didn't go the way they wanted”, one or two veiled threats from 'individuals', whose opinions do not reflect Bs official policy, and which have exhaustively been blown out of proportion by the left.
You don't ned to “teach” it's “OK” to be gay, instead, teach 'tolerance'.
Re 'education', seems you to tend to agree that not all were cut out to study....two options, kick 'em out, or impose tough discipline. In the old days students did not beat up teachers, quite common now in our public schools.
Competition to get in, is healthy, to open the flood gates to the unprepared, not so much. Only those who REALLY want to study, should be accepted.
Not sure of nbrs, but quotas are strict. Blacks only compete w/ blacks.
“for allegedly receiving bribes ”
Nov 29th, 2018 - 12:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0Then their toast as in Brazil, the mere claiming is sufficient under its draconian legal system, based on the Inquisitional law to convict, as no proof is necessary.
@JB/TH
Nov 29th, 2018 - 10:16 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: Receiving Bribes [alleged or otherwise]
It's easier to believe in the patriots:
http://cardosinho.blog.br/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/charge-duke-para-o-tempo.jpg
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