MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Falklands' national identity research triggered by years of Kirchner governments
Students of national identities will recall that throughout the long years of the Kirchner regimes in Argentina, and despite all historical evidence to the contrary, that country’s foreign ministers, ambassadors and even its presidents were adamant that there was really no such thing as a Falkland Islander. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesAccording to the Argentinians Falkland residents are “an implanted population of English people”
Jan 05th, 2018 - 10:03 am - Link - Report abuse +4Hm. Worth closer examination...
Falklands – Implanted Population (1 pg):
https://www.academia.edu/30505159/Falklands_Implanted_Population
How much of Argentina's population is implanted then? (apart from nearly all)
Jan 05th, 2018 - 11:47 am - Link - Report abuse +8Escoces- About 70% of their 40plus million are “implants”-their own word!!
Jan 05th, 2018 - 12:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +6And:
The original Argentine Implants - forced the local Indigenous peoples off their homelands - and later waged a war of genocide against the southern ones.
Never were any indigenous folks here to displace - and as Argentine Naval records of 1833 show- that apart from the militia and their families who were ordered out - the only civilians who left in 1833 were those who wanted to- the others ALL volunteered to stay on here and accept British rule.
Funny how successive Argentine Governments always Lie to others - and to their own people! They have lied so much and for so long - that even their Governments now believe their own Lies!
In 1885 a chilean warship appeared in Puerto Santa Cruz in Santa Cruz, Patagonia and claimed that it was part of Chile. The Argentine government was totally unable to protect Patagonia: They had indian “malones” (invasions) in Azul and Pergamino, barely 250 kilometers of Buenos Aires and no military capacity to protect even that close. So they reasoned: ”The English have troops and five warships on the Falklands. We'll reclute English settlers for Patagonia and if the Chileans come and bother them, the British will send their ships and troops to protect their citizens. So the first governor of Santa Cruz territory, Moyano went to the Falklands and offered free land to whomever wanted to move to Santa Cruz. My great grandfather was one of those who accepted the offer. That is how my family and most of the other Scottish settlers came to Santa Cruz.
Jan 05th, 2018 - 02:08 pm - Link - Report abuse +7But here is the point: By going to the Falklands and recruiting settlers the Argentine government there because there were English troops the Argentine recognized that the Falklands were British.
Splain that Twinkle/Voice...
Jan 05th, 2018 - 02:21 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Argies are the biggest hypocrites regarding the “implants” on the Falkland Islands
Jan 05th, 2018 - 03:49 pm - Link - Report abuse +3http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/12/how-argentina-became-white/#.Wk-dTL5c3ct
They should go and ask a Mapuche or a Qom or any other indigenous person why it is OK for an ethnic Italian to live on the mainland but it is not OK for an ethnic Brit to live on the Falkland Islands ;-D
viejopatagon
Jan 05th, 2018 - 07:27 pm - Link - Report abuse -3I think Argentina has always recognised that the settlers on the Falklands were British...
Still does...
@Voice. Another one of your “clever” little tricks of semantics, eh? So let's clarify, shall we? Do the Spaniards and Italians living on the south American continent consider themselves as inhabitants or “settlers”? On the face of it, they should be accepting that they are “settlers”. After all, surely inhabitants could construct viable societies in 300 years. Consider the Canadian and United States societies compared to those of Spanish and Italian immigrants to the continent of America. Still, it's understandable. The Spanish and Italians still can't make a success of Spain and Italy. Italy at least had the high point of the Roman Empire. The Spanish have never done anything worthwhile.
Jan 06th, 2018 - 02:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Congratulations Benjamin Sommerville...
Jan 06th, 2018 - 05:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0England will return the Malvinas within 25 years.
Jan 07th, 2018 - 03:47 am - Link - Report abuse -7Argentina has never in it's history quashed banned prevented nor snuffed any of its people expressing and claiming OR establishing their cultural or ancestral heritage or descendance. These new arguments were introduced by instigating foreign accusations. @Conqueror. WOW! hahaha . I thought we had prejudice problems in America, but now more and more I see it's toxic thinking that keeps seeping in through the language. It seems the British live looking for categories of people to create or continue to maintain separate.
Jan 07th, 2018 - 10:24 am - Link - Report abuse -2https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2013/08/indigenous-peoples-argentina-we-are-strangers-our-own-country/
Jan 07th, 2018 - 11:48 am - Link - Report abuse +2Original language?
Jan 07th, 2018 - 12:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Journalist?
Writers and Editors?
Publicists?
Headquarter Offices???
... besides. Precisely, you're unwittingly nailing my point. Before you 're society budded-in we had no such “arguments”. Problems were complaints to do with even equal distribution, poverty, infrastructure. Not racism. THAT'S YOUR WORLD. You're problem with us already was that when you came to Argentina, you saw we treated all Argentinians first and foremost above everything else, like Argentine under a single flag. Including your Welsh, Scottish, Irish and English immigrants. These problems the writers of your society invented actually had nothing whatsoever to do with ethnic or ancestral issues. You're culture twists it around, and then the next level tries to make it about “internal problems”. It's a cookie cutter story that gets repeated everywhere British and English language influence sticks its grabby own-prone insolent will in. And yet, the problem is ours in trusting historically proven backstabbers. Go! Go Keep honing your “phony friendships” with countries like Chile so like an evil shark can stay roaming around. Nothing has changed with your greedy fearful hearts, and politefully masked appearances, because underneath it all, is England's deeply seeded fear of loosing its wealth and not being able to maintain the size of the financial infrastructure it has created on the backs of other countries.
https://www.ifa-fiv.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/058_Discrimination-Argentina.pdf
Jan 07th, 2018 - 01:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +1What do you think it means Stoker, that it is nearly IMPOSIBLE to find such material SOURCED in any other language OTHER THAN English?
Jan 07th, 2018 - 01:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +1... I realize you probably can't or don't want to answer that truthfully. So go ahead and send me another English written Accusing Robber's manifesto !
http://www.inadi.gob.ar/institucional/direcciones/asistencia/denuncias/
Jan 07th, 2018 - 02:24 pm - Link - Report abuse +1@PE
Jan 07th, 2018 - 02:33 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Are you really so naive you think Britain invented the concept of racism?
How about this:
https://www.pelotadetrapo.org.ar/2013-09-05-12-30-19/2013/97-el-crimen-del-nino-qom-imer-flores-en-el-pueblo-de-los-olvidados.html
”Los pueblos del origen y los criollos no se entremezclan. Se chucean o se enfrentan. Las fricciones entre las dos culturas tensan el clima que parte de realidades contrapuestas. El sorteo de la Amarok es un símbolo de tanta inequidad que desnuda y quita las vendas de los ojos ante una comunidad Qompi Naqona’a que está hundida en la ausencia de derechos. “Nos discriminan y no tenemos acceso a la justicia, a la salud, a la educación. No tenemos agua”, dice el carashe Edilberto Pérez a APe. Su castellano se entrecorta. Obliga a la charla de palabras simples y espaciadas (ir al audio). La Justicia, en cambio, habla un español fluído, puro y lejano. La histórica ausencia de traductores en territorios legales puede convertir a un testigo en asesino o a transformar un crimen feroz en un homicidio en riña. No hay certezas para las familias aborígenes de que serán comprendidas exactamente en aquello que quieren decir o denunciar.
“Imer había hecho un tatuaje en su hombro. Había elegido uno de los cuatro dibujos de la bandera Qom para asestar como símbolo en su piel: el arco y la flecha que lo atraviesa de arriba abajo. Ese tatuaje, cuenta Denardi, había desaparecido del cuerpo del niño. Destrozado a golpes, irreconocible, magullado enteramente y sin siquiera el emblema de su pueblo que le fue despojado de la piel por sus asesinos.”
http://www.obserdiscriminacion.gob.ar/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/plannacional.pdf
Jan 07th, 2018 - 02:37 pm - Link - Report abuse +1OK, you got me... I see “the Argentine” that authored that presentation. ... But I got to thank you though. I see why this happens to Argentina more than other South American countries. I'll tell you one thing. It is not because we are not good people who do not discriminate any more then the next human being does anywhere else in the world.
Jan 07th, 2018 - 02:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0~Stop harming the world.
“who do not discriminate any more then the next human being does anywhere else in the world.”
Jan 07th, 2018 - 03:05 pm - Link - Report abuse -5I don't think you're any worse than other countries. But it's something common to all humans, not alien to your nature. The more alien thing is realising it and trying to fight it, and that makes eg the US look worse than it is.
http://territorioindigena.com.ar/
Jan 07th, 2018 - 03:19 pm - Link - Report abuse +1You're culture's thinking IS the problem Stoker. This is what is hard for you and many others to get.
Jan 07th, 2018 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0All of that literature has originated in socially civil-political ideas that come from America and Britain, or rather the English speaking culture of the world. I know because I witnesed it happen travelling during my life back and forth between Argentina and the US and saw its phases and changes. Every other country that is still naive to your influence continues on without this being an “issue”. You can't “systematize and regulate” our humanity in dealing with one another, and how we treat one another. In effect we have dulled our own cultures by making people afraid of just calling you by what they see or know about you. Why should there be anything wrong with calling you anything that describes you? We have made it worse, and now its getting twisted because, hate and suspicious loathing, which actually IS the problem, not the names we use, is finding its way to use fear of discrimination to continue putting others and other countries down. Creating incrementally more aberrations. A “homophobe” is a real interesting one, it is one of the most inaccurately unfairly invented accusations, but no time right now for that. Morgan Freeman says it best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3cGfrExozQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsHn9VJuTzA
Jan 07th, 2018 - 03:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Smarty funny kids ! The Chile one is a lot funnier. No matter how good our English is, or how “American” we sound, it seems our nasal cavity still gets in the way! LOL .
Jan 07th, 2018 - 06:46 pm - Link - Report abuse +3(they're exaggerating the Argentina one! jajaja) There are a lot of guys like them in L.A. and Miami
@Stoker
Jan 07th, 2018 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse -6“That's not true because we're also the best at conversations.” and “Thank god we didn't invite Chile.”
ROFL
@PE
Those things still existed before we had names for them. And the people who suffered because of them suffered just as much, but there was nothing they could do. You can easily see racism and similar prejudices in many countries throughout history.
so what is racism to you, and how do you feel it is “stopped” ?
Jan 08th, 2018 - 12:05 am - Link - Report abuse +1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkqlKOUUVa4
Jan 08th, 2018 - 09:39 am - Link - Report abuse +1@PE
Jan 08th, 2018 - 11:46 am - Link - Report abuse -6That's a broad question. Easiest just to refer to a dictionary:
1. Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
1.1 The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
I guess the first definition is what people are mostly trying to fight, although I'd say it is also racist if you believe some other race is superior, like the Nazi acquaintance Think once mentioned.
And don't think it can be 'stopped', but countries and people try to fight it by getting rid of racist laws such as the US and South Africa used to have, making laws against discrimination eg in employment, education and housing, and trying to educate people to look at others as individuals. Surely you know this?
OK. So if I say “Hey! You're Jewish right?? I heard your family all has money and successful businesses all over the country! Come work for me Jew! I need your expertise and know-how on board my company!” ... Am I being racist?
Jan 08th, 2018 - 01:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +2The situation of this boy is like that of thieves who usurp the house of a neighbor. This neighbor claims, but the thief says: my grandchildren are the ones who will decide the future of the house.
Jan 08th, 2018 - 01:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The boy of the notice is one of the grandsons of the thief, who now says: our right, our voice, our choice, is not bizarre?
@PE
Jan 08th, 2018 - 02:36 pm - Link - Report abuse -3Sure sounds like it, and I definitely wouldn't work for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70edu28zTfk&t=76s
Jan 08th, 2018 - 03:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@DT
Jan 08th, 2018 - 05:26 pm - Link - Report abuse +3while I think PE's opinions are biased and not too smart - he seems to be the type of person, the likes of one we've both encountered on here, and with whom discussions get nowhere pretty fast - if by his example of the Jew he was trying to make it sound racist, his intention may have backfired....after all hasn't he, even if inadvertently, praised their intelligence and good business skills ? to emphasize those (favourable) qualities is hardly racist. But you're right, I wouldn't work for a twit that approached me like that, either.
I don't no why he would have mentioned that he was a Jew...?
Jan 08th, 2018 - 06:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +2One would just say I admire your expertise and know-how...do you fancy working for me...
The problem with most of your come-backs Jack Bauer, and this is pretty typical of the British who want only to insolently fight with you, at least in my experience in facebook for example; is that when you respond in defense by denying or trying to discredit what the other person says, you never do so through presenting and argumentative counter substance point that took into consideration what the person said. You instead demean your own significance, and make instantly irrelevant what you say by always making it about your personal condescendence, and belittling loath of that person. All you really care to say it seems is “don't like this person, I hate him”. The response is nearly always an attempt to cleverly use words towards any fictitious familiar or standard criticism we've all heard before. In the end you people always come out sounding childishly stupid, and spoiled. Because all it is about is your prejudices, and stereotypical cultural racism, which you hide behind whatever nonsense you utter, and which is suppose to be what people who simply mindlessly follow whatever the status quo world empirically establishes ought to believe.
Jan 08th, 2018 - 06:28 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@JB
Jan 08th, 2018 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -6I think mentioning those favourable qualities can also be racist, although perhaps less annoying for the listener (Personally, I find undeserved praise makes me uncomfortable.)
Suppose he employs this imaginary person just because he's Jewish, but if he had done proper job interviews then someone more talented might have got that job, and has now lost out.
If this really happened to me, I'd not only think he was racist, but also that he only wanted to employ me to get favourable treatment from my family with its money and successful businesses everywhere.
@PE
“stereotypical cultural racism”
So you do know what racism is. Why are you asking me then?
...but then again I met one of my Yankee pals today...
Jan 08th, 2018 - 06:39 pm - Link - Report abuse +3and I said...“Hey Yankee, how you doing”....”
Was I being racist...?
Depends on the intent, doesn't it? It's not racism exactly, but when Hepatia says 'limeys' she is clearly trying to be offensive. And if enough people use a word offensively, it is assumed that anyone using it intends to insult.
Jan 08th, 2018 - 06:49 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Oh never mind! I didn't want us to stop to analyze and compare my example, or criticize it assuming I meant saying that would be alright or wrong in itself. I had a sequence of questions to in the end make a deeper point. Which is not so easy to explain so I needed to have you guys walk through examples with me. But I'll try to just spit it out and say it.
Jan 08th, 2018 - 07:21 pm - Link - Report abuse -1We shouldn't be neurotic about calling ourselves nouns, judgmentally jumping on a theoretical behavior because of what we say, which has little significance in the end devoid of the emotion behind it. Remember in the 50's when we used to give ourselves nicknames in childhood, like gonzo, or gordo, or green because someone was rich maybe. It was not just innocent, it was healthy. The point I was trying to make before was about stigmatization. I had a friend in L.A. who used to say all the time. “He's a total jew” meaning stingy with his generosity, not necessarily with money money though. He was jewish himself, and you never felt he was jewish, or that he was being mean and discriminating when he used that term. No one then in our group had been stigmatized. We become stigmatized when we create the list of words “we are not too use” Then our whole world becomes affected, and we now have discussions, which in the end become stifled. We castrate our spontaneity when we limit the amount of names we can call someone. Because normally and naturally... Why should we mean anything evil when we call someone? Today in America if you go to a social welfare office to fill out one of any form packets they might give you, there is always one that you have to go through. The whole page is full of nationality races nouns with a check box next to it. Latino is one the always cracks me up. What the hell is Latino? Do they mean Hispanic? Brazilians always have a tough one with that. My blue eyed blond curly haired Argentinian friend would just put “white” and then his wife who had dark brown eyes, tanned skin and brown hair would..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvBpsbLVm30
Jan 08th, 2018 - 07:39 pm - Link - Report abuse +3What a waste of perfectly good equipment, tape-recording time, air time, and people's time.
Jan 08th, 2018 - 08:27 pm - Link - Report abuse +3A little less criticism and competition, and some more ideas and understanding, is what the world needs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEAX_BFS-Ps
Jan 08th, 2018 - 08:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0@PE
Jan 08th, 2018 - 09:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Your problem Patrick Edgar, is that you ‘presume’ everyone wants to fight with you...why would I waste my time ? I only expressed what I think of your opinions, which isn't much. But since I have no interest in analyzing your warped mind - seems always on the defensive, twisting people’s words and trying to invert things…a lot of useless mumbo-jumbo - I'll leave it to Freud.
@DT
If praise makes someone uncomfortable it must be because they are either very shy, or know they don’t deserve it…but when it’s deserved, what’s the problem ? Don’t see how saying that Usain Bolt, or Michael Jordan were great 'black' athletes is being racist...or should I have said they are just 'great athletes' ? or that the Jews excel in business, medicine and physics…or that the Chinese are good at math...the fact that one may point out that a certain race may concentrate more talent than others in specific areas, is not being racist – it’s giving credit where it’s deserved.
If PE, or his fictitious employer was trying to ridicule the Jews by saying how smart they are, I think he pissed out the pot.
If someone wants to take you on because they think you’ll be an asset to them, based on your profile, why presume it’s gotta be bad ?…unless of course, you think you aren't up to the job ? (provided nothing 'shady' is expected of you)
Regarding ‘Hepatia’ or the other dozen aliases it uses, it is clear its posts are clearly meant to offend, or criticize negatively. But, as they say, what comes from beneath doesn’t matter…except if you sit on an ant hill.
One thing PE says makes sense, i.e., if I’ve understood what he implied, is that political correctness gets in the way of honest spontaneity, many times making people resort to being false, in order not to offend…in this case what’s worse, being honest or dishonest ? Suppose most people know where they are treading....fact is, many people today are too sensitive, looking for ‘hair on eggs’…
@JB
Jan 08th, 2018 - 10:04 pm - Link - Report abuse -6I did say undeserved praise. Suppose I am black and you talk about what great athletes black people are. Well that's nice, but I've always been crap at athletics, and good at maths. I'd much rather be praised for something I've achieved myself.
As for your examples, I think it's a problem if you pick black players for your rugby team, or employ Jews in your business, or prefer Chinese accountants just because they are black, Jewish or Chinese.
And since PE's fictitious employer talked about how great my race is, and my family, but seemed to know little about me, I would strongly suspect that those are the reasons he wants to employ me.
As for Hepatia, suppose 90% of the people using 'limey' were like her? You would soon start assuming it was meant as an insult. That is what I was saying to Voice. Unlike reality, language is a democracy. Words are nothing but a collection of sounds; they mean what people believe they mean. If most people think a word is offensive, eg 'fuck', then it's offensive. The same applies to racial terms.
Sometimes this does become ridiculous, mostly when students start campaigning, because they don't yet know what is important and what isn't.
@PE
“Remember in the 50's when we used to give ourselves nicknames in childhood, like gonzo, or gordo, or green.”
No, I don't. Perhaps I should ask my parents if they remember anything. And unless your twitter account is lying about your date of birth, neither do you.
In my childhood, the only people who gave such nicknames were school bullies, and it was neither innocent nor healthy.
Now as an adult, sometimes friends may call each other offensive things affectionately, but they know each other well. They would never say the same to a stranger unless they wanted to start a fight.
As for your friend, that is just another stereotype:
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/096/ArgentinaIsWhite.jpg
What exactly do they “lie” about @Islander1?
Jan 08th, 2018 - 10:11 pm - Link - Report abuse +1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyJK_7fxFXs
Jan 09th, 2018 - 09:03 am - Link - Report abuse +1See, you're way of thinking installs racism and prejudice. That's how you think. You look for the differences to have a “better and a worse” people.
Jan 09th, 2018 - 12:35 pm - Link - Report abuse 0People are people, we are all equal. The woman is Argentine, and the only reason she says stupid shit like that is because she's been listening to your crap, and dumb people who believe your crap is “smart”.
@PE
Jan 09th, 2018 - 01:13 pm - Link - Report abuse -3You asked me what racism is, and I answered, so how about you answer the same question?
What is racism to you, and how do you feel it is “stopped” ?
Well done to the young man seeking the truth about the make up of the Falkland Islands population/identity, more Malvinas Myth busting on it's way.
Jan 09th, 2018 - 01:38 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Many thanks to the Kirchener's whose myths have kick started the Falkland Islanders to debunk them like never before.
An aside.
When are the fibreglass/papiermache statues of the Kirchener's going up (Port Louis, or even better on a seabird colony, so the birds can pay their white respects too), in grateful thanks for how they've helped the Falkland Islanders?
@viejopatagon
“But here is the point: By going to the Falklands and recruiting settlers the Argentine government there because there were English troops the Argentine recognized that the Falklands were British.”
Yet another counter to the myth that Argentina have continually protested Britain's presence in the islands.
@Malvinense 1833
“The boy of the notice is one of the grandsons of the thief”
What property belonging to the civilian settlers at Port Louis in 1833, was stolen by Britain?
How exactly was the act of Onslow paying gauchos in 1833, stealing from them?
Surely, Vernet not paying his staff was' the theft' from people originating from the United Provinces, (i.e Antonio Rivero, who to the best of my knowledge was not landed at Port Louis in 1833 from Britain via HMS Clio).
If it is said by Argentina that the Falkland islands belonged to them in 1833 (considering the British still had a valid claim on the Falkland Islands then).
So, Malvinense,1833, how many children were at Port Louis in 1833, born on the Falkland Islands from parents born in the United Provinces, and not from implanted Europeans?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H9nwWUlfCE
Jan 09th, 2018 - 01:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +1I don't believe “racism” is as a concrete behavior, or a part of our psyche, like you would say “selfishness” “joy” “suspicion” “meanness” “generosity” “betrayal” .. It is not something that actually exists Demon Tree in any concise way. It is a logical construct of behavior (being mean to someone based on a physical description, or 'maybe also' a cultural or social grouping) something we have invented in modern times, and are pushing and using in judgmental criteria. You may be asking so what, right? Well, reduccion to a single word of what is actually an 'explanation of behaviour' boarders on unnatural, it creates problems, rather than resolve them, precisely because mankind's logical intelligence creates problems for itself and eventually fails, as it pushes against the envelope of the natural. Take a car for example, proportionate to its unnaturalness we pay the price of people getting run over and killed inside them, etc. We have weighed the consequences and have decided that the benefits outweigh the “unnatural harm” . In the area of intellectualism regarding our human behavior, it becomes less obvious and more conceptual, harder to conclude. But before we run of space, let's propose the alternative solution, to something that is creating more problems than it is solving. Forget the whole idea all together, and let's teach our kids to not use the things we can't change about ourselves so easily to vent when we are angry or can't help wanting to express rejecting disapproval at someone's doings. In the past we were wiser, we would just tell our children “don't call him that, that's rude!” That rudness has to do with being sensitive and respectful, again, about the things that we can't change, and are maybe good, it's just that the kid at that moment probably has the hardest time seeing that black, or jewish is a beautiful aspect about that person, because at the moment he is angry. So we taught our kids the detailed subtlety of content once. Now no longer
Jan 09th, 2018 - 04:04 pm - Link - Report abuse +1http://www.racism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1334:argentina01&Itemid=254
Jan 09th, 2018 - 04:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +1What a great thing the Internet is !! We must make sure it stays fee and uncensored for ever ! One of the interesting things about it, is that you will find WHAT YOU SEEK to find on the Internet, as you clearly have been demonstrating. Here's a regretful reality check for you @Mr Stoker, though I seriously doubt you will heed it.
Jan 09th, 2018 - 05:10 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Along side your condemning suggestions, I have found other more playful “MTV fun” videos to the effect of how “White” Argentina is, (implying opposite El Salvador Mexico o the rest of South America). Dismayed at it I'm sure, as the rest of “South America, Mexico and El Salvador”, is what our English speaking very visual-media culture has been proliferating is the look that “Hispanics” have, which actually has to do with the ethnic groups that have constituted the majority of the immigration to the United States, and then elsewhere. Just as surprised they were, I saw when I was younger, when people met folks from Spain, although in few second neurons would bridge the connection to it being a “European country” and the look of “Oh but I see... ” would befall their faces. Unless of course they thought Spain was somewhere in the Caribbean. Anyways; this MTV type video about Argentina being such a “European” country, where they play polo and tennis, shocked by a city that looks more like a cross between Paris and New York, is very revealing of the fact that it was expected to look more like Mexico or some African metropolis. I got news for all of you. Argentina has always been the way it is today, since its founding practically. And that is not saying anything or boasting nothing. It simply means it is its own country. It is not the country YOU FEEL YOU MUST ANALYZE AND DEFINE. Argentina in no more into being aware of the differences among it's people than any other country in the world is either. More significant I feel is to point out how hypocritically repressed about how they really think inside and insincere YOUR culture is about people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc216CcOYZA
Jan 09th, 2018 - 05:27 pm - Link - Report abuse +2@PE
Jan 09th, 2018 - 06:11 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Not racism as such, but prejudice against 'outsiders' has always been a part of the human psyche. If you doubt it, you only have to open a bible, which was written long before England ever existed.
I don't think it matters so much what you call it, but it clearly exists. A turd by any other name would still smell of shit.
Besides, if you don't think it's a concrete behaviour, why did you accuse Jack Bauer (unfairly) of 'stereotypical cultural racism' above?
“Let's teach our kids to not use the things we can't change about ourselves so easily to vent when we are angry or can't help wanting to express rejecting disapproval at someone's doings.”
That is exactly what I was taught as a child, and what I am in favour of now. You are the one who was complaining that it's now frowned upon to call people names.
And you should realise people make jokes about Argentina exactly because Argentines get upset about it. Why does it bother you so much to be mistaken for your 'brunette sister'?
@Stoker, you're making an ass of yourself. The only thing that is coming through here is YOUR OWN personal quest to find demeaning shit on Argentinians. You're the only “racist” around here right now. I'm from L.A. I probably have driven past that intersection a bunch of times. I'll tell you what that video makes evident. One, is how YOUR CULTURE has created an instantly available meaningless judgement accusation word by which to victimize yourself and make the other person guilty, avoiding a deeper contextual understanding of what happened. The world “racista”. Just like some of your own dumb f**** facebook palls enthralled on calling me a “homophobe” jealous that I would comfortably talk with intelligence on the subject of homosexuality with comprehension and understating instead of cultural ignorant hysteria, revealing that they like some troglodyte mob, were just looking for rocks around them to pick up and throw at me. Except you all are so viciously sinister, that the plan was to make me look like I was a “law breaking racist” so they can report me, maybe even get me arrested. Stupidly enough the tiger traps are also recorded on facebook. Our English speaking illustrious culture did little more with this whole “human rights defense against prejudiced language” moralist crusade, than put those rocks on the floor for people to throw at you.
Jan 09th, 2018 - 06:19 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The Argentine was an impatient abusive prick, but he was right. He was wrong about being physical however. He could 've just said something and the corn on the cob dude would not have come back the next day, but very likely he would have and the dude was still going to be in the wrong, playing the ol' “oh I'm just a sweet harmless vendor from Central America, until the police one day ask him to move. Case closed. ”Latinos” in L.A really recent Argentine, I'm like an expert in the subject, I could give you a huge dissertation on it about why it occurs. This video might have even been staged. Fact is, both you and the vendor..
So you're a homophobe as well, are you?
Jan 09th, 2018 - 06:35 pm - Link - Report abuse -3http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/12/how-argentina-became-white/#.WlT8lr5c3ct
Jan 09th, 2018 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Has it ever occurred to any of you, to come in here to talk to people? Instead of to combat and challenge everything, or if you don't find anyone to oppose, then to lynch and criticize what the article instead has included or identified as a negative aspect?
Jan 09th, 2018 - 06:42 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“So you're a homophobe as well, are you?”
Jan 09th, 2018 - 06:51 pm - Link - Report abuse +3...as well as what...?
Yes, it has. Patrick, if you think people everywhere are attacking you: YOU are the common factor. You could just ignore Stoker, instead of trying to combat and challenge his video, and try to defend some total stranger who is clearly an asshole, whether he's a racist or not.
Jan 09th, 2018 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Don't you just hate it when someone posts a comment whilst you are typing...?
Jan 09th, 2018 - 07:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +3I am very lucky, I can never understand what Patrick is banging on about. He seems to be incapable of being direct, concise and to the point. It all goes over my head...
Jan 09th, 2018 - 07:28 pm - Link - Report abuse +1@Voice
Jan 09th, 2018 - 07:31 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Yes. But I don't think I can answer anyway.
Patrick, you keep bringing up stuff from Facebook. Have you considered that you might subconsciously be trying to have the same fights all over again?
@ Patrick Edgar
Jan 09th, 2018 - 07:41 pm - Link - Report abuse +4“Has it ever occurred to any of you, to come in here to talk to people?”
It has not occurred to many Argentines (in government) to talk to Falkland Islanders to find out their desires.
Perhaps you could pass on your advice to the Argentine Government,' come in here to talk to people' so that instead of pretending the Islanders do not exist, they have a conversation with them even if they do not agree with the islander's viewpoint. Pretending the islanders do not exist, and maintaining the fiction that they are not derived from several generations born on the islands, merely illustrates ignorance on Argentina's part.
@DT
Jan 09th, 2018 - 08:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Apologize...hadn't realized you'd said 'undeserved' .. I agree praise is only due when it refers to above average achievement, or when you want to encourage someone who's on the right track.
Of course I wouldn't be picking blacks, or Jews, or Chinese at random, solely based on the reputation of their respective races, for generally being good athletes, good businessmen, good at math, but given the concentration of such talents in the respective groups, it would be normal to end up with more blacks in a soccer/rugby team, or more Jews at the head of a successful business. And, am not saying ONLY blacks are good at soccer, or ONLY Jews are good at business, but all you need to do is look at a soccer team in Brazil, and the majority of players are black, same as the NBA in the USA...look at the names of successful medical doctors, bankers, industry owners here, and you'll see tons of Jewish names...and they all have to be admired for their success.
I think your remark “If most people think a word is offensive, eg 'fuck', then it's offensive. The same applies to racial terms”, is pretty accurate...it's a matter of perception...I can call my best friend an asshole when he screws up and he'll laugh, but call someone you've just met, an asshole... but it is a problem when people go out of their way to 'look for something' to criticize, or demonize, inventing useless PC words to substitute perfectly normal ones, which they try to pass off as suddenly having a nasty connotation...eg., you can't call a person who is lame, or disabled, a cripple....people look sideways at you...you MUST say 'physically challenged'...and, btw, I doubt it was someone crippled who pushed for the change.
Later on in life, the type of 'students' you mentioned, should eventually sort things out. If they don't, they've got a problem.
But I do need to congratulate you, on your patience to try to make sense of PE's incessant rambling...undecipherable crap, unless you want to go insane.
I could defend that, but I'm going to take a different approach, so that you have something to reflect on that is different to what you have come to expect, or should I say assume, rather.
Jan 09th, 2018 - 09:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Let me ask you, In 154 years; when have the Islanders EVER NOT acted like the Argentine did not exist? During our better times, Argentina was extending itself significantly to the islanders with various forms of assistance. Yet always so passively, you only took or received. How did you in turn demonstrate reciprocity to Argentina ever? We never not made the continent unconditionally available to the islanders including our... if well modest, basic humanitarian infrastructure, medical, schools so forth . And the islanders? The islanders always act like they are so deserving. Why should the Argentine consider them deserving of anything? Have they ever asked Britain to resolve the conflict so that we both can get on with a more communicative and collaborative relationship ? NEVER. Yet then you come around acting like you are the targeted abused recipient of the conflict, when in reality the Argentine never had any aims, disparaging or blamefull feelings towards the islanders. It's all a very clever psychological set up by war and invasion experienced Britain. The Argentine simply misused the language as a reactive defense to Britain using the islanders as a Diplomatic Human Rights Shield to the dispute, hiding behind the islanders universal rights everyone has, which Argentina never touched, making a fake aggressor of Argentina, as if we were trying to pick a fight with the islanders. Very smart. Hence why the passionate and naive Argentine tried to defuse and disarm that strategy by saying that the islanders were implanted, or did not count. What they always meant was that the conflict was between Britain and Argentina. Britain understood that, yet its focus was the propagandist war, stoking and provoking more. The islanders never once asking for peace or a resolution. we see you
@JB
Jan 09th, 2018 - 10:00 pm - Link - Report abuse -1No problem. I guess the things you mention are pretty common, although they also depend on cultural values of what is a good job. Certain groups of immigrants in the UK really push their kids to join the professions, for example. Whereas people from certain countries working in eg takeaways is more down to opportunity and lacking other skills, including fluency in the local language. Anyway, you know that not only black people are good at rugby. ;)
Totally agree you can say things to your friends you would not say to strangers. The problem with these words is the euphemism treadmill. If what the word describes is generally considered a bad thing, then whatever new name you give it will eventually be considered offensive too, and meanwhile people get confused which term to use. 'Moron', 'imbecile' and 'idiot' were originally used as technical terms for those of low IQ. Later they were replaced with retarded, which is also now considered offensive. When I was growing up, the popular term was 'special needs', and 'he's a bit special' does not mean anything positive...
Some people seen to believe that changing the words will change the attitudes, which is exactly backwards. Change the attitudes and the words will follow. Hopefully the 'word police' will realise this and find more constructive ways to push for the changes they want.
@PE
So to summarise:
“Argentina is just naive and passionate, and can do no wrong. Everything is Britain's fault, especially that war Argentina started, and they poisoned those ungrateful Islanders against us.”
Ah! That summarises Patricks beef? Would a Falkland Islander like to summarise the Falkland Islander's view of Argentina for Patrick. Then we can all move on...
Jan 09th, 2018 - 10:13 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Um...didn't they do that in their referendum?
“in reality the Argentine never had any aims, disparaging or blamefull feelings towards the islanders”.
Jan 09th, 2018 - 10:57 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Those poor, misunderstood Argies.....they left hand grenades in Falklander Neil Ford's house to try to kill him. They shit in his freezer for the fun of it.
http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/8410550.Friendship_forged_in_Falklands_War_endures_for_Newport_man/
;-D
You seem to forget Demon Tree, this conflict... this cold war over the Malvinas archipelago, and I call it Malvinas because Britain effectively conceded to Spain's dominion of the area and had left the islands, STARTED AND CAME TO EXISTENCE WHEN AND BECAUSE Queen Victoria's Imperious Britain, shoved aside any diplomatic and political respect towards the new fledgling nation of Argentina, and while pretending to be its friend and ally further north, down south opportunistically used its military weapons to completely insult the countries significance and forcefully eject its flag and sovereign administration of the islands. Hence starts today's conflict dispute.
Jan 09th, 2018 - 11:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Demon T. Pointless for you play the injured Killdeer for the islanders. But if you do want to reduce this not to the complex conflict development that it is, but rather to a “slugger and victim” minimum denominator formula. It certainly is not Argentina the slugger and Britain the victim. Britain uses its military and its international industrial financial power to shove aside the Argentine claim and plant itself on the islands, generate any story it wants and plaster the world with it. I think we can both agree that Britain is the aggressor and tyrant here, as Argentina has repeatedly said it merely wants to discuss and talk about the sovereignty matter of this dispute, over and over. Never in its 154 year history of the conflict taking anything but a diplomatic non military posture, always asking for talks. Minus the non generated by the people, nor by the congress or senate, or even socially generated aberration of the occupying Juntas stupid attempt to fall into the trap of taking back the islands. It's obvious that it was some form of trap, there is no doubt about that. Unless these generals took acid for breakfast, something else is not being talked about. It seems as if it was what Britain was waiting for, since now, it wants to make EVERYTHING hinge around that freakish war of shame and betrayal
Now its us that started a war! You couldnt make it up!
Jan 09th, 2018 - 11:46 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Patrick=brainwashed nutter.
@PE
Jan 10th, 2018 - 12:08 am - Link - Report abuse -2“But if you do want to reduce this... to a “slugger and victim” minimum denominator formula.”
I can't speak for anyone else here, but I *don't* want to do that. It is what I see you doing. You can't admit Argentina has done anything wrong even once: “Never in its 154 year history of the conflict...”, “It's obvious that [the war] was some form of trap”. Beyond actions, even what Argentina says is Britain's fault according to you: “The Argentine simply misused the language as a reactive defense to Britain”. Argentina is a perpetual victim according to you.
You talk about the Falklanders; they never asked Argentina for assistance. Perhaps they welcomed it, I don't know. But it was all given conditionally, after agreements with Britain (which AFAIK the Islanders had very little say over), and it was Argentina who wanted something from them. Quite possibly they saw it as bribery, and certainly they saw Menem's efforts that way.
I can see you've all hit the ceiling on this topic. They might as well close commenting on the thread at this point. Just out of curiosity... how long have you been interested and learning about this conflict with Argentina. And I don't mean when did you first hear about it. I was 17 and was there when the news broke out and watched it unfold every day until it was over. Have been following it since. So that's 35 years. Plus I'm bi-cultural, bi-lingual I hear both sides in my two mother tongue languages. Compared to you, I'm nearly incapable of being biased hearing and understanding from their own hearts both societies, the Argentine and the British one. I think I just might know a tad more and a little better what I'm talking about than any of you do.
Jan 10th, 2018 - 12:25 am - Link - Report abuse -2“I'm nearly incapable of being biased”
Jan 10th, 2018 - 12:44 am - Link - Report abuse -2Wow. Boy oh boy are you wrong. At least I have enough self awareness to know that I'm biased.
But go on, tell us what people said at the time, if you remember. And please bear in mind there are videos on youtube showing people celebrating in the streets.
I'd be quite interested Patrick, why you as an American think you understand British society....?
Jan 10th, 2018 - 01:08 am - Link - Report abuse +4Bear in mind that I'm married to an American and she has lived in the UK for quite sometime...
...and I can tell you that she often clearly demonstrates the fact that she doesn't and will never understand the British...ever!!!
How many years have you spent living with the British and understanding their culture...would that be none...?
LOL......those poor, misunderstood Argies never meant any harm.....as all the written testimony of the Falklanders in this book would tell you
Jan 10th, 2018 - 08:28 am - Link - Report abuse +1https://www.amazon.co.uk/Invasion-1982-Falkland-Islanders-Story/dp/1844155188/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1515572629&sr=1-4-fkmr0&keywords=graham+bond+falkland+war
Somebody should teach those Argies how to use a toilet though ;-D
Nostrils vanishes and then along comes Patrick.... A constant supply of Argie nutters to keep Mercopress posters engaged? If Argieland is populated by people like this there is no hope for it. I have noticed that some nationalities seem to have a proclivity to waffle endlessly and achieve very little, Argieland seems to fit that category.
Jan 10th, 2018 - 10:15 am - Link - Report abuse +1well well .... look at what Pandora's box let out. That's what I get for believing in good intentions and good will ! ... A slightly different version I suppose of Pandora's actual curiosity. Must be because I'm a male.
Jan 10th, 2018 - 11:56 am - Link - Report abuse -2Don't be so precious. It's not 'bad will' to disagree with you or to wonder why you think you understand British people and culture when you've never lived in Britain.
Jan 10th, 2018 - 12:18 pm - Link - Report abuse -3PE
Jan 10th, 2018 - 12:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +5After reading your several missives, I begin to wonder if I am on planet Earth !
Your “unbiased” opinions are exactly that with the exception that they are your opinions -not facts- and are therefore biased.
The joke that Argentina only wants to “discuss” the situation is totally false.
What Argentina “wants” is the removal of ANY UK influence in the area including, S.Georgia and the Sub-Antarctic islands and Antarctica.
They are adamant that the Falklands be handed over, come under their sovereignty and be governed by a bunch of self seeking morons currently running Tierra del Fuego.
Hardly the basis for any meaningful discussions from the UK's point of view.
You say that you are bi-cultural. From where do you get your British culture ?
Have you lived any length of time here in the UK,or attended schools, colleges or worked here. Have you any idea how the UK population feel at “gut level” over many issues.
I sometimes think that our politicians don't either.
From my point of view, I have been interested in the Falklands and S.Georgia since 1960.when I was considering a 3 year government posting there...I think that this considerably predates your “interest”.
Your governments best position is to say nothing for he next 30 years, be friendly with the islanders and see how things go. It could be that the Islanders may consider a con-federation with Argentina IF they think that you could be relied upon to keep to any mutual agreement. It's up to the Islanders to determine the way they wish to go....not to have it imposed upon them.
Of course not all Argies are morons. I think Professor Carlos Escudé talks sense and probably has the good manners not to shit on the furniture when he is in another man's house - even if that man is a Falklander ;-D
Jan 10th, 2018 - 12:44 pm - Link - Report abuse +4http://www.argentina-rree.com/documentos/culture_escude.htm#_ftn1
@DT
Jan 10th, 2018 - 04:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“they also depend on cultural values of what is a good job”…if they allow culture to be an obstacle in the way of a good job, guess it’s their option...but I consider a good job doing what you like ‘n getting well paid for it.
If the traditional meaning of a word connotes something bad, or over the years has become ‘naturally’ demeaning, ok, but to decide, out of the blue, that a word is no longer suitable because it offends something “unnatural”, is lamentable. Today, the pendulum swings in favor of political correctness…tomorrow it may swing the other way. The use of “retard” is interesting : if someone is truly lacking in the upper story, and you simply comment that “he is a retard”, it may not be offensive, but if you say someone’s a “f*cking retard”, then yes, it sounds like it’s intended to offend. But I agree, changing words is not the solution, changing attitudes, IS.
@PE“
”Argentina was extending itself significantly to the islanders with various forms of assistance”. Aware of the Argies ultimate intention with rgds to the Falklands, I’d say their assistance was not a selfless move, but rather geared towards taking over the islands without a struggle...you know, the ‘silent revolution’ thing..
And in the case of one big neighbor (Argentina) and one small (FI), which would have greater capacity to influence the other ? the idea that the FI should have shown ‘reciprocity’, is bs. But what reciprocity d’you think they should have shown ? opening their doors, without restriction, so the Argentine could explore their fishing industry, or even their oil reserves ? As I said, you have a way of twisting things.
Re your “I was 17 and was there when the news broke out and watched it unfold every day until it was over”…so what ? you only heard the Argy point of view, brainwashing you. I too have been following it since 1982, but unlike you, I researched a bit of history before coming to a conclusion. And you, bi-lingual ? Don't make me laugh
This is pointless. There's an overall contextual parameter of fairness that puts all nations on an equal playing field of rights, which Britain arrogantly feels it should not abide by. It continues to bully ahead carrying the spoils of an era that raped a world of underdeveloped nations and patrimony that belonged to other nations. Short and simple, if Argentina had nuclear weapons no doubt Britain would be very promptly willing to discuss fairness and equitable distribution of world resources in the South Atlantic. What Britain needs is a couple more North Koreas pointing their guns at you, so perhaps you learn some day the meaning of respecting all nations as equals on this planet.
Jan 10th, 2018 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Stoker,
Jan 10th, 2018 - 04:55 pm - Link - Report abuse -4Fascinating article !
I agree. The article touches on a very interesting topic.
Jan 10th, 2018 - 05:15 pm - Link - Report abuse -2It seems that until the Islanders didn't have someone to be negative towards, whatever you want to call it (suspect, recent, begrudge, fear, loath, dislike, belittle, disrespect...) They couldn't get up and say “we Are”. I find it quite unfortunate however to see the form of what was erected from a clean slate. ... You're lucky Im just about to run out of batteries. .........................
More words of wisdom from Professor Carlos Escudé
Jan 10th, 2018 - 05:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +3https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Future_of_the_Falkland_Islands_and_Its_People/The_Falklands_Will_Never_Be_Argentine
Indeed, I often wonder if the British ever truly considered the islanders future fulfilment and real self-determination. would it not be in the islanders best interest to have a thriving friendship relationship with Argentina? however nothing they do seems to point out that. they slander and criticise argentina's politics the meddle with argentina's political economic direction, pressuring and coercing it's leaders, it installs a provocative fully decked out notary based pointing directly at the country for 35 years without any Argentinian military provocation. it simply wants to fight with Argentina. One can only wonder why. If we had to decide between the two I ask, does it see Argentina as an equal nation or as a source of sustenance?
Jan 10th, 2018 - 05:32 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Gosh Patrick
Jan 10th, 2018 - 06:26 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Maybe those Kelpers should indeed realize have a thriving friendship relationship with Argentina. The unforgettable slander and criticism of Argentina's politics as well as meddling with Argentina's political economic direction, pressuring after 35 years without any Argentinian military provocation is a travesty.
But then again, they don't have Argentine soldiers pointing rifles at them or telling the to drive on the right side of the road either...
Maybe they might be considering that the GDP of the Falkland Islands is $96,200 2012 est. vs. Argentina at $20,200 2016 est. Sort of unfair don't you think?
@JB
Jan 10th, 2018 - 06:29 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Less of an obstacle and more about expectations. Some parents are more ambitious for their children and push them harder, some communities have higher expectations. Parents in the US seem to care more about how their children do at sports than at school sometimes. Probably US kids would work harder if they were encouraged to.
I guess it can seem out of the blue, but language is changing all the time, and it's young people who change it. You probably don't understand all the slang that teenagers use, right? So if they decide a word is offensive, then as they grow up it becomes more widely considered that way. At some point older people find they get in 'trouble' for using a word they have always used, which is kinda stupid. I guess people do update their speech to reflect changes in the language, but maybe more slowly as they get older, and at some point it's too much effort.
Does the same thing happen with political correctness in Brazil, that words which used to be okay are no longer acceptable?
@PE
You should have answered Voice's question. It's obvious you don't understand Britain at all.
From the UK government point of view, losing the Falklands to a second invasion would be disastrous, that is the biggest threat.
Going back on their promise of self determination and giving the islands away, as people here would see it, would also make them very unpopular. Apart from that, they would prefer to have good relations with Argentina, but it's not essential. They are prepared to negotiate things other than sovereignty, and have done so when Argentina has more amenable governments.
Nations are not on an equal playing field, and Argentina recognises that fact as well as Britain does. Some are vastly stronger, and for each country some are neighbours and thus more important, some are allies, and some are hostile. Does Argentina treat North Korea the same as China? Of course not, and quite reasonably so.
Do you understand at all? Do you even want to?
Patrick
Jan 10th, 2018 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +6“What Britain needs is a couple more North Koreas pointing their guns at you, so perhaps you learn some day the meaning of respecting all nations as equals on this planet.”
Again you are so off the mark it is unreal...
Britain has existed for decades under the threat of nuclear annihilation from Russia..the dreaded 4 minute warning...enough time to kiss your arse goodbye...
It is still a primary target today and I live just a few miles from an absolute first strike target...the British nuke stock pile...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-minute_warning
When Argentina removes it's claim on the Falklanders homeland from their Constitution and acknowledge the Falklanders right to self-determination under the UN Charter then we can talk about a peaceful future. Until then they will always be the enemy.
Jan 10th, 2018 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +3PE
Jan 10th, 2018 - 07:22 pm - Link - Report abuse +6would it not be in the islanders best interest to have a thriving friendship relationship with Argentina?
The answer is of course ....YES !
However, this is NOT what Argentina is offering.
They are offering the take over of the sovereignty of the islands with some possible safeguards which could be withdrawn at some future date against the will of the original islanders
“if Argentina had nuclear weapons no doubt Britain would be very promptly willing to discuss fairness and equitable distribution of world resources in the South Atlantic.”
To Argentina, this means that they want it all. S.Georgia, Sub.Antarctic islands and Antarctica included. Why do you think that they belong to you ?
As Voice says, we know all about being under REAL nuclear threat. From the Korean War onwards we have been living as a first strike target from the Soviet Union.
I have seen our V - Bomber force being dispersed to Prestwick airport, Machrihanish NATO base and Stornoway at times of heightened tension.
The most frightening was at the Cuba crisis when the US Nuclear subs. vacated the Holy Loch to be followed by the depot ship the USS Proteus. This was preparation for nuclear war.
So, you really don't know what you are talking about. You have been spoon fed prejudices from birth and just regurgitate them
By the way, you never answered my question as to why you think that you have a special insight to British culture and norms.
Essentially what you're saying Stoker is, Do not confront Britain with any arguments or protests because, we will ignore you or use our military power to shut you up. That's what drop your claim means in a world where all countries have discussed wear to draw their borders between countries.
Jan 10th, 2018 - 08:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -2And Clyde you are simply not saying the truth, Argentina has always asked for talks and negotiations precisely to resolve the issue, an issue based on its sovereign claim to the islands. But that does not mean it will only accept complete exclusive possession of the whole archipelago. Why would it ask to negotiate then? Are we all being stupid here? The true statement behind its claim, is that it arrived on sovereignly unconsolidated islands, not contained in the sovereignty of any one nation yet, before Britain came back and forcefully ejects their dignified peaceful earnest administration, saying “sorry, we did want them after all”. The world is not Britains to be leaving “just in case” reservation cards all over the place. And besides that Argentina had given the islands something neither Britain or Spain had; a country. All this doesnt even mean ultimate fairness would allocate the islands to one or the other country. The usual normal course would have had more than likely the islands split. Britain simply saw it could overpower Argentina and that Argentina could never fight a naval war over the islands any time soon.
“But that does not mean it will only accept complete exclusive possession of the whole archipelago.”
Jan 10th, 2018 - 08:59 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Stop misleading folk Patrick...
Argentine Constitution...
First.- The Argentine Nation ratifies its legitimate and non-prescribing sovereignty over the Malvinas, Georgias del Sur and Sandwich del Sur Islands and over the corresponding maritime and insular zones, as they are an integral part of the National territory.
The recovery of said territories and the full exercise of sovereignty, respectful of the way of life of their inhabitants and according to the principles of international law, are a permanent and unrelinquished goal of the Argentine people.”
You need to establish a base of authority if you seriously mean to negotiate. You can't say “We are willing to drop half of our demands”, if you cant sustain why you would be otherwise entitled the the whole thing. The article needed to be included for any negotiations to make sense, since Britain sequestered the exsersising of our sovereign rights.
Jan 10th, 2018 - 09:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -4How can you negotiate at all if you make it illegal to compromise?
Jan 10th, 2018 - 09:42 pm - Link - Report abuse +2That clause was only added in 1994. Argentina negotiated just fine before the war.
And Patrick, when are you going to tell us why you think you have such an insight into British culture?
PE
Jan 10th, 2018 - 10:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“Are we all being stupid here” You certainly are !
YOU HAVE NO SOVEREIGN RIGHTS....END OF STORY AND GOODNIGHT.
@PE
Jan 11th, 2018 - 12:00 am - Link - Report abuse +3“Britain effectively conceded to Spain's dominion of the area and had left the islands,”
Yet after 1774 there were British ships surveying the islands and British whalers and sealers operating around the Islands,long after the Spanish left, yet the Spanish did not throw them out before 1811.
The Spanish did not occupy Port Egmont, or anywhere in the Islands outside their garrison at Port Louis.
“used its military weapons to completely insult the countries significance and forcefully eject its flag”
Forcefully? The military weapon used to ask Pinedo to leave was A LETTER!
Pinedo's British born (i.e, not from the United Provinces)crew refusing to fight the RN, possibly due to the fact they would have been tried for treason had they lost, was the reason the letter won the day.
Eviction of the militia by diplomacy, not by force.
Great Britain protested the sending of the militia in 1832.
Diplomatically.
You convieniently don't mention that the only force used against the UP militia was the ten mutineers in that force, tried and shot, not by the British, but by the Buenos Aires authorities.
You fail to mention the 12 United Provinces settlers (out of the 24 multinationals )that chose to stay in 1833 under the British flag, including Antonina Roxa , a female gaucho that became a respected Falkland Islander, an expert in raising calves and cows,owning her own ranch near Stanley, dying there in 1869.
You do not mention Vernet's slaves, given emancipation by Cpt Onslow, Carmelita Penny and Gregoria Madrid, both dying in Stanley.in the 1860s/1870s.
“before Britain came back and forcefully ejects their dignified peaceful earnest administration,”
The militia, the administration if you like, were anything but peaceful, expecially when the 10 conscripted convicts murdered Mestevier and raped his wife in front of their children, In fact the 'administration, the militia caused the settlers(who were peaceful) a lot of problems.
weak, inconsequential details that attempt to water down the more determining facts. The fact that some Argentines accepted staying doesn't say much, considering what life was really like on those islands then.
Jan 11th, 2018 - 12:34 am - Link - Report abuse -3I find it interesting also that the British have been drawn to learn how to bring up all these details that occurred on the islands, in response to Argentinians necessity to explain how much the had going on on the islands, when the argument ought to be won through events that would have had to do with Buenos Aires instead. Proving that there was never any diplomacy at all, rather good all fashion bullying of those who were defenseless far way from any commanding power in the Capital.
Everything about how Britain has behaved in its ambition to keep the islands is dishonorable, dark, manipulative, abusive, undignified underhanded and shameful. Especially the war of 82. The fact that it just wants to re write and change the story, defame and shame slanderously Argentina, pretend it never had anything to do with the islands while it tries to buy time full force ahead, only makes worse and more evident.
“I'm nearly incapable of being biased” - PE
Jan 11th, 2018 - 01:29 am - Link - Report abuse +2Patrick Edgar
Jan 11th, 2018 - 03:10 am - Link - Report abuse +3“Argentina has always asked for talks and negotiations precisely…” Only when subterfuge or force have failed. You’ve got to be kidding if you expect the UK to ever negotiate at all since you were the one’s to dispense with such niceties the moment you could use any other unfair or illicit advantage.
They would be wise to remember the opinion of the US chargé d'affaires Francis Baylies who wrote about Argentina in 1832 “...The revolutions of these people are seditious; their knowledge. chicanery and trickery; their patriotism, their liberty, a farce... ” Baylies held that the US should sign no treaty “…for we would abide by it, and they would consider the violation no greater offence than a lie told by a schoolboy...“ Juan Manuel de Rosas as Viewed by Contemporary American Diplomats. William Dusenberry
Moreover, the UK has completely been in accord with international law throughout the history of Argentines spurious claim. “There is no obligation in general international law to settle disputes”.
Principles of Public International Law, third edition, 1979 by Professor Ian Brownlie
That's an opinionated interpretation, sorry@Terrence Hill. It's wrong and probably the result of a shallow adolescent comprehension of this world conflict Britain has had with Argentina for 185 years now. When you look at the whole conflict, and every official statement that has ever been made by Argentina, or generally by our society as a whole, you will find that not once is there a mention of using military force, nor much less any aggression towards the islanders. Why do you think Britain's propagandist policy is to make try and keep provoking Argentina so as to turn them into having an hostile policy, and then use that to personify an enemy. The real diplomatic manners of the conflict have always made Britain look like crap, like an shameless abusive bully using its phony friendship to resend the matter further up future. This is one of the reasons bringing a war to actually explode or “manifest” on the islands themselves was very attractive to Britain, everything that followed was planed and welcomed. The Kirchner erred policy of economically challenging the dispute was a result of British provocation. There are lot's of things no one in the public ever hears about dear. We technically we are suppose to report or “get clearance” to do any military activity since the war, as you might now. On the outside, or on paper ... this looks maybe fair, but only theoretically. In reality the British use it to show of the immobility of their bullying will. Britain has never had any true respect for Argentina as a nation. Possibly because it knows better what it sees Argentina as. It sees Argentina as something it wants to have, ever since the founding of the country. But has hidden those desires behind a fake mask of civil report and an attempt of an economic relation that appears sensible and fair.
Jan 11th, 2018 - 08:59 am - Link - Report abuse -5There is something about Britain's political perspective on the world that is definitely not what people think it is. Compared to the rest of its family of nations it still..
There is nothing to “negotiate”. The people who live on the islands have the right to self-determination under the UN Charter (which the Republic of Argentina signed on 26 June 1945). The UN have set up a mechanism for states to determine sovereignty disputes. All Argentina need to do is convince a majority of the fifteen judges sitting at the UN International Court of Justice (ICJ) and that would be case closed. I wonder why Argentina refuse to bring their claim before the Court?*
Jan 11th, 2018 - 09:13 am - Link - Report abuse +2*Don't worry.......I know why ;-D
https://falklandstimeline.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/falklands-at-the-icj2.pdf
The above information has dealt with historic arguments proving the validity of the Convention of Peace of 1850,
Jan 11th, 2018 - 09:30 am - Link - Report abuse +5the statements made by Argentinean politicians in the period of signing and the long periods without
protestations all contributing to proving sufficient evidence of acquiescence and estoppel that nullify the effect of
any sovereignty claims. The laws applicable of the day and modes of acquiring title to territory along with the
effective control argument, relevant UNGA resolutions and rights of the Islanders to exercise self-determination,
discussed above, is also convincing evidence that Argentina does not have an effective sovereignty claim to the
Falkland Islands. Argentina's claim has no basis in international law. The only relevant factor in Argentina's
claim is her proximity argument – 300 miles. Any sovereignty claim that is based solely on proximity alone does
not constitute a title to the Islands and is no stronger a case than Canada claiming Alaska because it's closer. A
sovereignty case submitted to an international tribunal can only realistically have one outcome.
Argentina has shown a willingness to resort to the International Courts of Justice in pursuance of other claims
when it suits her purpose 261 but is reluctant to take this course of action regarding its Falkland Islands
aspirations thereby exposing the weakness of her case. Instead of seeking a legal judgment, Argentina chooses to
pursue its Falklands sovereignty aspirations by conducting what only can be described as a process of diplomatic
warfare against the Islanders and the UK government. And, as we all know, it had tried to seize the Falklands by
actual warfare in 1982.
The dispute has been a convenient tool for various Argentine governments to use in order to divert attention
away from domestic problems. Argentina maintains the pretence of a sovereignty claim over the Falkland Islands
but a claim without any legal basis can only be described as illegitimate.
The Falklands Malvinas Territorial Dispute, though it is listed as a similitude to a “colonized territory” It actually is different in nature and should not qualify for the mechanisms of that department. The British were very smart in listing it as a Non Self Governing Territory under British administration, effectively encapsulating all levers and island matters under the invisible single authority of their own Crown Government, resulting in the Argentineans merely looking like protestors before the Decolonization Cometee, instead of an occupied people, which is what that UN department was created for. It was not created for the Falkland Islanders. They way the Committee interprets cases would have the Islanders claiming their self reliance, self sufficiency and readiness to be independent, perhaps denouncing unfair practices by their administrating government. So instead of the Islanders complaining, they function as dead weight in Britain's favor, and Argentina must argue a historical issue rather than a social-political one.
Jan 11th, 2018 - 12:23 pm - Link - Report abuse -3No matter what you all say; being a cheater is never, ever, going to be compatible or comparable to being right. Hence why today we have Britain using its fire power intimidation to maintain its occupation of the islands. An occupation that is historically political, not civilly social, and thus it should be treated with a completely different evaluative scheme by the Decolonization Committee, with different procedures and with a different category arena of power decrees.
“No matter what you all say; being a cheater is never, ever, going to be compatible or comparable to being right”
Jan 11th, 2018 - 12:50 pm - Link - Report abuse +3No matter what you all say; being a cheater is never, ever, going to be compatible or comparable to being right.
Jan 11th, 2018 - 01:00 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Out of your own mouth you have described Argentina's approach to its false claim to the Falklands.
Although asked several times, you have failed to reply
@Patrick Edgar
Jan 11th, 2018 - 01:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +3“weak, inconsequential details”
You Malvinistas aren't very keen on details.
You assert:
“before Britain came back and forcefully ejects their dignified peaceful earnest administration”
I point out:
that Mestivier (the head of the UP administration) was murdered by members of his own military and his wife was raped in front of her children.
I am challenging your assertion that the administration was:
'Peaceful earnest and dignified.'
So have you any counter points to suggest that the administration was as you say,'peaceful, dignified and earnest?'
I suggest it is your 'facts' that are weak as you have not defended them.
It IS wholly relevant that Pinedo crewed his ship with British born sailors and not sailors originating from the United Provinces.
If the sailors were from the United Provinces they might well have fought when Pinedo requested them to and history may have been different.
Neither is it inconsequential that after Onslow left, there were no British military forces on the Islands, only the civilian settlers, until January 1834, so that gave ample time for the United Provinces to pursue their claim by sending a naval force, which would have been unopposed.
“The fact that some Argentines accepted staying doesn't say much, considering what life was really like on those islands then”
Of course it says much. Life was a lot easier in the United Provinces, so the decision to stay in the islands must have been because the settlers were prepared to brave the conditions, and create their 'Brave New World, in the Falklands as pioneers.
These people clearly preferred being British to being Argentine, especially as they were given the choice to return to the United Provinces if they wished.
“when the argument ought to be won through events that would have had to do with Buenos Aires instead.”
Are you by any chance a comedian?
What has BA got to do with the Falklands?
The clue is in the distance between them for this one.
If the Republic of Argentina had a legal claim to the Falkland Islands they would not hesitate to take it before the UNICJ. They have taken several other disputes before the Court in the past. We all remember the Argentina v Uruguay “paper mill” case which Argentina lost 1 - 14. When the UK tried to take Argentina before the Court to settle the sovereignty dispute with respect to South Georgia, South Sandwich and other territories in the 1950s the Republic of Argentina refused to attend and refused to accept the jurisdiction of the Court.
Jan 11th, 2018 - 03:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +3http://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/26/026-19560316-ORD-01-00-EN.pdf
What has Bs As have to do with the Falklands??? Where to you think these people were coming from, Who do you think was sending them . Buenos Aires and Montevideo were the closest harbors for traffic. The Malvinas were akin to the Far West . Lawlessness . Which was one of the motives Buenos Aires sought to implement the rule of law , as they felt it befell them . Which it did . In another thread you were talking about Rivero . Rivero to me is a fascinating character of History . These killings you mention reveal there's a huge chunk of details and History to the Malvinas we simply don't know about, yet a lot could be reconstructed to tell the real story . Why do you think Rivero killed some of the people he was working with before ? This is an enthralling aspect of that chapter of Island History . What we have are the British accounts that tell a the story as it benefit England and English actions . But the English would not write about the nobility behind many of the actions Rivero's predicament compelled him to do. Who actually knows the situation being shared among the minds governing the people who spoke Spanish, and found themselves not knowing who to trust any more ? We were all dealing with the political thinking of people before we decided where they were from. The Spanish were very much still our enemies . We were vulnerable to the cultures who spoke the same language of others who would have conquered Argentina . And yet , we tried to reach the islands trusting them, as we felt it was just and fair to encompass them in our new territory . Can you imagine the feelings of people witnessing this whirlwind of betraying interests, courageous hearts, who had to trust foreigners on the sole belief they abode the same principals. Then sudden turns when people revealed deeper felt loyalties. It's absolutely fascinating history !! To bad the English language now will continue to corrupt it, distorting it so as to make sure it always sounds right, for Britain. Tragic.
Jan 11th, 2018 - 03:52 pm - Link - Report abuse -3@PE
Jan 11th, 2018 - 04:35 pm - Link - Report abuse +3“Where to you think these people were coming from”
Fair comment but Vernet asked permission from the British Consul in BA to be in the Falkland Islands for his settlement which is difficult to reconcile with the idea that BA had total control of the islands and that the British claim magically disappeared after 1774 when there was a British naval and commercial presence around the Falklands.
“ Lawlessness . Which was one of the motives Buenos Aires sought to implement the rule of law , as they felt it befell them ”
The same reason that Britain established a military presence in the islands in 1834, to protect the settlers against the likes of Rivero and to remove him and the murderers.
Vernet's scottish no2 Matthew Brisbane had returned to run the settlement for Vernet and he was also murdered.
“Why do you think Rivero killed some of the people he was working with before ”
Rivero went on a murder spree as he and the gauchos with him had been promised money to build a coral. The coral was built and Vernet did not pay up.
So Rivero's beef was with Vernet's staff, it was not as Argentina claim a rebellion against British rule.
Vernet paid his staff (that is to say when they were paid), with locally issued paper money that could only be used at the local store to buy goods at inflated prices. Without silver, trade with the British, french and USA fishing fleets was difficult. Thus Onslow paid the gauchos to stay in 1833, in silver that they could use.
“But the English would not write about the nobility behind many of the actions Rivero's predicament compelled him to do.”
Rivero was wronged, but that did not justify the murder spree, can't see the nobility in that. Several of the inhabitants who had been peaceful and dignified had to hide on Hog island for months.
The Falkland Islanders have generally never taken offensive violent action against Argentines, yet that nobility is not respected by Argentina.
@DT
Jan 11th, 2018 - 05:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“…more about expectations.”…suppose you’re right, culture influences the seriousness with which people face study. During high school I had 2 Chinese friends, wizards at math ; they’d even win arguments with the teacher ; visiting their homes, it was clear their parents thought being 2nd was not acceptable. The school however, did take one’s dedication /achievement in sports pretty seriously.
Slang used by the younger crowd here, has little to do with PC’ness…it’s just their way of communicating; they are pretty alienated when it comes down to social issues. They may profess to be full of ideals, but are unable to offer solutions to problems they point out, due to lack of experience.
Here, it’s usually some group that entitles itself to speak for everyone, trying to impose what ‘they’ believe is suitable for them / trying to prohibit what ‘they’ don’t...and these ‘campaigns’ are usually ‘imported’…many things here are not an issue until one of these self-entitled groups comes along trying to impose their will. Kind of artificial.
I think older people just decide to no longer use some (common) words as a means of self-preservation.
About the only word that causes a problem here, is the use of the “N” word and related matters. The blacks can call us (the equivalent of) ‘honky’, can associate in black-only clubs, but if a club, with predominantly white membership, refuses entry to a black person, all hell’s let loose. It’s still very one-sided.
@PE
“would it not be in the islanders best interest to have a thriving friendship relationship with Argentina?” Only the islanders have the right to answer that….
“Argentina has always asked for talks and negotiations precisely to resolve the issue,” -sure, but on the condition that the final result is Argy sovereignty over the FI….doesn’t sound much like ‘negotiations’ to me.
And as Stoker well pointed out, take your case to the ICJ…if you don’t it’s only because you know your rights don’t, and never existed
http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/68/153
Jan 11th, 2018 - 06:15 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Ah Patrick
Jan 11th, 2018 - 06:45 pm - Link - Report abuse +4“...To bad the English language now will continue to corrupt it, distorting it so as to make sure it always sounds right, for Britain...”
Two quotes for your contemplation:
“Defeat? I do not recognize the meaning of the word.” April 1982, start of the Falklands War by the invasion by Argentina.
“History is written by the victors.” Winston Churchill
Northern Chile used to belong to Peru and Bolivia...
Eastern Patagonia once was claimed as part of Chile...
History Patrick, move onward to something worthwhile to the debate.
@Stoker
Jan 11th, 2018 - 07:34 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Yr link :
2. Declares its firm opposition to acts of foreign military intervention,
aggression and occupation, since these have resulted in the suppression of the right
of peoples to self-determination and other human rights in certain parts of the
world”, says it all ;
Without mentioning the Falkland Islands specifically, it is clear that the UN (i.e., most of the rest of the world) does not condone the Argies perpetual and childish threat against the rights of the islanders, but yet they won't back down...dunno what it'll take to make them grow up. Perhaps they need a national pastime to entertain themselves and to forget their real problems..
For years I said it would backfire and entrench a stronger identity. ‘Them and us’ is the first building block of a national identity.
Jan 11th, 2018 - 08:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +4Beautiful own goal Argentina, beautiful!
@JB
Jan 11th, 2018 - 10:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I have a couple of friends from Hong Kong and they said the competition is really intense there. Young people have to work hard or they know they will never get anywhere. There isn't this idea that you can coast through school and still get a decent job. And that's assuming you can go to school, which in Brazil I guess isn't always the case.
Nothing wrong with school sports, but from US TV I get the impression that being good at sports is admired but being good at academics is despised. Hardly a good way to encourage kids to achieve.
Are your 'self-entitled groups' getting ideas from America about which words are supposed to be acceptable? It must come from somewhere.
And Brazil's government seems very white for a country with a large black population. Is it the same in business?
@DT
Jan 12th, 2018 - 07:13 pm - Link - Report abuse +1In Brazil, as I've mentioned before, there are remote places in the rural areas (especially in the N & NE regions), where schools are far and few between, and as 'we' know them, non-existent. In those places, kids have an excuse...but in urban areas, reckon about 99% have access to some type of schooling, probably nothing to write home about, so the problem would be more about school evasion than lack of opportunity.
If the kids, and their parents alike, resign themselves to the notion that because it's hard, they should not even try, needs to be combatted, but when you're dealing with large portions of the population that aren't too bright, it's hard to get the message across.
“IF” in the US, “being good at academics is despised”, I wouldn't know, but IF it is, I reckon the hate comes from those who haven't bothered studying and have it in for those who do/did, and as a consequence, make money. I'd say it stems from 'jealousy', even when not justified.
Regarding social trends, Brazil is influenced by what goes on in the US....may take a bit of time - today less time due to the speed of communication - but eventually arrives. American culture here is mostly admired by those who have something in their head, and criticized by the ignorant who believe they aren't ignorant....the nationalists who think every first world country is trying to 'buy' a piece of Brazil...a backward way of thinking, but used by politicians to argue against privatization of State-owned companies - and we all know why.
If Brazil's government “seems very white for a country with a large black population”, it is true for the highest posts, but just need to take a look at members of Congress and you get a reasonably fair mix....the “black” blacks are giving way to the 'mulato' (or 'brown' as some people say), which today is the majority of the population . In business, education influences how high you go, so yes, currently, the higher you go, the less blacks
England will return the Malvinas within 25 years.
Jan 13th, 2018 - 04:50 am - Link - Report abuse -3@DT
Jan 14th, 2018 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +1am surprised that someone - probably with only half-a-brain - is downgrading your posts....you are not trying to make a political statement, so what's their point ??
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