MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Brazil shares surge as Lula's corruption conviction is confirmed ruling him out his presidential bid
Brazilian assets soared, with the Bovespa surging above 83,000 for the first time ever, and the currency Real surging through 3.20 after three judges in a local appeals court upheld a conviction for corruption imposed last July on ex-President Lula da Silva. Read full article
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Disclaimer & comment rulesVoting for a candidate is easy - just pick-up a crook - ANY crook! REF:
Jan 25th, 2018 - 09:23 am - Link - Report abuse +3https://i0.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Brasileiro-burro.jpg?resize=768%2C576&ssl=1
Is it remotely possible that Lula could be in jail until he's 85, or die there? If so, what a disgrace. As for the election, there's still a few appeals left I think, but if he can't get his name on the ballot can any other candidate not win by being the candidate to stand against the tragic farce - and against the fascist Bolsonaro? Can Dilma run again actually, seeing as she's not a 2nd term incumbent (the corrupt oligarch's having seen to that!)
Jan 25th, 2018 - 12:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -2“British KIRCHNERIST” seems to forget that he is specifically a devout Kirchnerist, first and foremost.
Jan 25th, 2018 - 03:36 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Yet, his supposed personality-cult adoration and support of Korrupt Kretina, seems to be in lockstep with endorsing and defending the likes of Lula, already convicted and upheld on charges of similar corruption, and Dilma R., implicated in the same. I don't recall if he has abandoned the Bolivarian Revolution and Maduro, yet.
It all indicates an obvious political leaning, and not the adulation of a 'charismatic, beautiful, and benevolent champion of the people' as he paints his support of CFK.
It is consistent with the rest of the Think trolls that will defend individual SA leftist politicians, but are unable to differentiate between them.
In this climate of the SA Spring, I still do t think we'll see any of accept the duly-processed legal repercussions against these people.
Nor do we see any one of them condemnat Maduro and his anti-democratic suppression of his own population.
The dismissal of Lula's appeal and the increase of his sentence to 12 years will be plastered on history books as one of the most shameless miscarriages of justice to serve political interests that Latin America has known to date.
Jan 25th, 2018 - 05:29 pm - Link - Report abuse -4The three appeal judges purposely disregarded evidence and made a ruling just because they can. That is not justice, not even a shadow of it.
Anyone who is at least mediocrely informed knows that, as Lula continues going up in electors' opinion polls, Brazil's regressive dominant class is ready to do whatever it needs to stop Lula from being a candidate.
They used to send the tanks whenever the electors did not follow their wishes--they now use the judges. Different means--same result.
@BK
Jan 25th, 2018 - 06:12 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Highly unlikely Lula will be imprisoned, even after all his appeals are rejected, but if he is, he'll be out after 2 years.
@Kanye
Dilma (and even Lula to a certain extent), continue to 'publicly' support, and praise, Maduro's 'democracy'....sounds like EM does as well. The 'petistas' only have one truth - their own - and anything else is not democratic.....the worst acts, if committed by the PT, or their ignorant followeres - MST, MTST, CUT - are quite acceptable, and they always accuse those who don't agree with them, of their own crimes. Classic tactic of 'the best defense is attack '
@EM
“...will be plastered on history books as one of the most shameless miscarriages of justice to serve political interests that Latin America has known to date”.
How dramatic !!! first of all, that statement reinforces the fact you aren't very familiar with South American history, and second, if the history books are written by the radical left,
you might be right...
But what evidence did Lula's defence produce to prove he is not the hidden owner of the 'triplex' ?...I want to know, because I never saw or heard any of it in the legal proceedings.
I see you are admitting that you are not even “mediocrely informed”....because when did “the tanks” get sent in “whenever the electors did not follow their wishes” ?
Reekie, you should really stop spouting all this BS unless you are prepared to back it up..
@Kanye
Jan 26th, 2018 - 12:37 am - Link - Report abuse -2You left out Corbyn, who BK has also praised.
But I was thinking. You surely must include Voice in your category of 'Think trolls', but I don't recall seeing him defend leftist SA politicians.
If my memory is incorrect, please feel free to refresh it.
DT
Jan 26th, 2018 - 06:13 am - Link - Report abuse +2First you make assumptions on my behalf, then put words in my mouth, and finally you ask me to back up your assumptions.
What do you think of the state of Venezuela's democracy, and BK's focus?
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jan 26th, 2018 - 11:40 am - Link - Report abuse -1“But what evidence did Lula's defence produce to prove he is not the hidden owner of the 'triplex’?
What bunch of codswallop, that goes against the internationally accepted presumption in law. Further, it is an impossibility for any defendant to rebut a negativity. Jack you’re an alien from Mars, you can’t refute it so you must be, you moron.
@Kanye
Jan 26th, 2018 - 01:45 pm - Link - Report abuse -2Seriously? Does that mean you don't include Voice in your list of 'Think trolls'? Last time I spoke to you, you seemed to be under the impression they were the same person. Do you mind telling me who is included then, so I can avoid 'putting words in your mouth' in future?
“What do you think of the state of Venezuela's democracy, and BK's focus?”
I think Venezuela is no longer a democracy, and Maduro will remain president no matter how the citizens vote in coming election. As for BK, he appears to support populist, left-wing leaders in general, and I don't believe he would be raving about how wonderful and beautiful and other puke-worthy adjectives CFK is if she espoused neo-liberal policies.
@JB
Jan 26th, 2018 - 01:54 pm - Link - Report abuse +2REF: “.....................................he'll be out after 2 years”:
two WEEKS may be more accurate! REF:
https://i0.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/00rs0125ars.jpg?resize=580%2C396&ssl=1
@TH
Jan 26th, 2018 - 06:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“codswallop” ???.... don't care what your 'internationally accepted' presumptions are, because Zanin said 'he' had 'proved' Lula was not the owner of the flat...basing his 'assumption' on the (weak) argument that it was not (yet) in Lula's name ; it never would be, as the plan was to leave it in OAS's name, or to put it in the name of a 'laranja'...(one of Lula's 'good' friends), but this fell through when the 'lavajato' raised the question of the ownership of the flat in Oct 2014, forcing Marisa Leticia to go public and say (even after OAS had spent one and a half million reais putting in all the modifications requested by her), that the flat was not want they were looking for, and, because Leo Pinheiro was jailed, making it impossible for him to hand over the keys so as to allow the Silva family to spend Christmas (2014) in the flat...how sad.
There's a popular song here, written in Lula's honour, and basically says “the triplex in Guaruja belongs to a friend of mine, the house in Atibaia belongs to a friend of mine, I have nothing of mine, it all belongs to a friend of mine”....very appropriate..
But keep on kicking you little feet in a tantrum, Pinocchio.
DT
Jan 26th, 2018 - 07:07 pm - Link - Report abuse +2I am not accountable for what any of the Trolls do or do not, say.
Re: BK
I would suggest that there is added appeal for him if he can annoy and frustrate other posters with his absurd adulation of CFK.
@Kanye
Jan 26th, 2018 - 08:15 pm - Link - Report abuse -3And you're also not accountable for what *you* do or do not say, apparently. I'll assume you didn't mean it, then, since you are unwilling to stand behind your words.
RE BK, Think said the same and I imagine you are both right.
DT
Jan 26th, 2018 - 09:20 pm - Link - Report abuse +2Again, I am not accountable for the actions, statements, consistency, or non-actions, or non-statements of others.
You can infer what you like, or extrapolate as you please.
In the end, that is purely your own speculation and if the behaviour of all your perceived Trolls is not consistent, I suggest you take it up with them directly.
I don't “agree” with Think. We have simply arrived at the same conclusion.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jan 26th, 2018 - 11:23 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“(I) don't care what your 'internationally accepted' presumptions are” I the UNHRC and the international community doesn’t care what ‘might’ or ‘could be’ under this “primitive legal system“. Functioning legal systems convict only those that are proved factually culpable. Or on maladjusted persons singing derogatory songs.
Are you sure you’re not Argentinean? It is only those I have run into with a nationalist bent that have continually been revealed as chronic liars, that would still have the moxie to cast dispersions on others that are blameless.
@Kanye
Jan 27th, 2018 - 01:04 am - Link - Report abuse -2We were talking about your perceived trolls; I doubt my list has much overlap with yours. However since you won't admit whether or not Voice is on it, there is nothing more to say.
“I don't “agree” with Think. We have simply arrived at the same conclusion.”
It's so awkward when that happens, isn't it? ;)
REF: “Brazil shares surge”:
Jan 27th, 2018 - 01:05 am - Link - Report abuse +3So quickly?
Perhaps it's the case of Premature Ejaculation? REF:
https://i2.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Lula-no-Lucro.jpg?resize=543%2C420&ssl=1
Hey Terry...
Jan 27th, 2018 - 01:12 am - Link - Report abuse -1“cast dispersions”
What do you think you mean...?
Voice, V0ice, Vestige, Think et al, sock-puppeteer extraordinaire and mythology major
Jan 27th, 2018 - 01:51 am - Link - Report abuse -1You’re right I meant to say ‘aspersions’, thanks .
@JB
Jan 27th, 2018 - 06:38 am - Link - Report abuse +1Suddenly Jack has become touchy about the need for myself to “backup my statements.”
Well, Jack, I will gladly provide you with a few links after I see backing for statements such as “Nisman was murdered” and ”Lula (or feel free to insert Dilma instead) has stolen everything“ and so on.
Look. Nobody is sucking their thumb here and you even less than anybody. Having Temer as president is a total joke, and the markets being happy when Lula gets charged shows even better the hypocrisy of the so-called ”market,“ which rejoices at the reduction of rights implemented by their man sitting in the presidential chair.
You know well that the rich and the powerful in Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Honduras and other Latin American countries will never let their economies become fully capitalist. They need to keep the semi-feudal component that allows them to break workers to submission and accept any wage level by keeping them uneducated, misinformed and by keeping high levels of unemployment and informal employment.
Those people become very upset even at the thought of workers living a better life. No sir. What would the world become? The unwashed believing they are like us? These people live in bubbles, despising and fearing the crowds of those who live day to day.
That is why they are resorting to any means within reach to straighten the situation after mistakes allowed some representatives of the people to be in government. And as the brutish force of the assault rifles and the tanks became outdated, the power of judges and accomplice media became the favourite instrument to keep the power where ”it belongs.”
This is the sad reality of the sub-continent.
Hello, ALL!
Jan 27th, 2018 - 12:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0There are many for/against and many pros/cons in any system and in any “isms” [political or otherwise]. But fundamentally; none are 100% perfect and ALL are based on power + money - as much of it as they can possibly grab/cling to. Obviously; due to the greed; the excesses simply can't be avoided, especially if the masses are lethargic, disinterested, ignorant and above all; brainwashed. REF:
http://adao.blog.uol.com.br/images/m-monstro-4579.jpg
TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT!
@TH
Jan 27th, 2018 - 03:20 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Are you sure you’re not Argentinean?” stupid question. Never made a secret of the fact I was born there...so what ? I am definitely not a nationalist, Argy, Brazzo, or otherwise. The only thing 'bent' around here, is your 'logic'.
Ah, even if you choose to deny the proof rgdng the purchase of the triplex, then pls explain why Lula declared it in his 2009 tax return to the “Receita Federal” ? and every year, through to 2015 (referring to fiscal year 2014, at the end of which he was to receive the keys ?), and then in 2016 (fiscal year 2015) it disappears ? You can't can you ? but don't worry, neither can Lula, who thought he could fool the IRS.
Keep on denying the facts, which despite your continual allegations you are an expert on int'l law, just shows how clueless you really are about the legal procceedings. As to your claim, obviously based on your ENORMOUS experience with nationalists, that they are chronic liars, you have just defined Lula. Like it.
“cast dispersions” v. aspersions“ ? what's wrong, get your knickers in a twist, again ?
@EM
”Touchy ?” don't make me laugh...or d'you think you can state anything you want on here, and that's it ? But before you send any links to back up your allegations, please make sure they are not from Lula's or PT (paid) blogger sites, nor from the notoriously left-wing media.
Am curious to know when, in recent history/elections, 'tanks' were sent in to repress voters.
Just to set the record straight : I'm ONLY supporting Temer, or any other person who might be /have been in his position, FOR AS LONG AS THE ESSENTIAL REFORMS ARE BEING PUSHED THROUGH CONGRESS....only Temer has had the balls to do what no other president has. Once his term finishes, AGW, he'll get what he deserves.
In case you haven't noticed in previous posts, I agree with your assesssment of Brazil being run like a feud, and that the people are left ignorant on purpose. By all governments.
All corrupt, even your idol Lula's.
Jack Bauer
Jan 27th, 2018 - 04:25 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Even if you choose to deny the proof rgdng the purchase of the triplex”
Thats easy enough as that after a perfectly legal venture investment. The holder didn’t renew with a successor company, as is shown in this following media presentation. The investment was held in-abeyance with the option to purchase, which was not triggered. It appears in financial terms a rather modest investment.
“That Marisa Letícia became associated with Bancoop and acquired a share for the implementation of the venture called the Cantabrian Sea, on the Asturian beach in Guarujá, a middle-class resort on the coast of São Paulo.
When the Mar Cantábrico venture was incorporated by OAS and renamed Solaris, the payments were suspended, because Marisa Letícia stopped receiving tickets from Bancoop and did not join the agreement with the new developer.
What does that mean?
1) That the family of the former president invested R $ 179,650.80 in the acquisition of a share of Bancoop. In September 2009, this investment, adjusted, was equivalent to R $ 209,119.73. In today's values, R $ 286,479.32. Therefore, the family of the former president paid money and did not receive money from Bancoop.
2) That, even though it did not accede to the new agreement with the developer OAS, the family retained the right to request at any time the redemption of the quota for participation in Bancoop and in the enterprise.
3) That, in the absence of a new contract, within the term stipulated by the shareholders' meeting (until October 2009), the reservation of unit 141 (later sold by the company to another person, according to a certificate in the real estate registry).”
www.institutolula.org/documentos-do-guaruja-desmontando-a-farsa
@TH
Jan 27th, 2018 - 08:47 pm - Link - Report abuse -2“The investment was held in-abeyance with the option to purchase, which was not triggered”
The law sees it as the downpayment to property.....but regardless of the obviously biased bs from the site of “Instituto Lula”, you keep on denying what's staring you in the face...
“..., the payments were suspended, because Marisa Letícia stopped receiving tickets from Bancoop and did not join the agreement with the new developer.”
Bancoop declared bankruptcy after R$ 100 million disappeared from the building fund, (stolen by João Vaccari Net, PT treasurer and Lula's close friend), so of course Maritha stopped receiving “tickets” from them. The payments were not resumed after OAS took over the project , because then Lula and Leo Pinheiro entered into the agreement that it would be payment for past favours...hence all the modifications made to the flat, Maritha's and Lula visits, the photographs etc...up to Oct 2014, when the lavajato denounced the crime and Maritha reluctantly had to go public and say they didn't like the flat....what was there not to like about it ? the fact that the Silva family had to pretend it wasn't theirs ?? Lol.
As to the rest of your BS, no use giving your personal twist on the truth.
I'm prejudiced AND brainwashed into thinking that ALL the political Parties and ALL the Politicians ARE corrupt
Jan 28th, 2018 - 12:19 am - Link - Report abuse +1Having said that:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cc/26/25/cc2625ca9ff5f77bfa83ab6044a7fc9a.jpg
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jan 28th, 2018 - 01:19 am - Link - Report abuse -1“The law sees it as the downpayment to property” It would not be viewed as such under a better developed legal system. As there has been no conveyance of property title. Moreover, in the states Lula would probably be regarded as being legally at ’arms length’. “Silva family had to pretend it wasn't theirs”
Well, that shouldn’t have been difficult to refute, a title search would have revealed who held the ownership. Or witnesses to who was in occupancy had to be a tenant or owner.
Instituto Lula, biased of course. But, whats important, are their claims factually correct? If it is, there would be no conviction in any criminal court operating in ‘common law’ countries. As the prosecutorial would have to persuade the court beyond a ‘reasonable doubt’ which has been interpreted as too a ‘moral certainty’. Moreover, while trial before a jury not an automatic right under international human rights law. It is most certainly is in ‘common law” jurisdictions. Furthermore, no judge would have retained jurisdiction after exhibiting such plant bias under the doctrine that is famous for its precedence in establishing the principle that the mere appearance of bias is sufficient to overturn a judicial decision. It also brought into common parlance the oft-quoted aphorism “Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done.”
Which is going to be a real problem when reviewed by the UNHRC. As the final analysis will be how much can the government encroach on an individual’s right to a ‘fair trial’?
@:o))
Jan 28th, 2018 - 07:03 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Good one.
@TH
UNHRW ??? ROTFLMAO...
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jan 28th, 2018 - 07:31 pm - Link - Report abuse 0You don’t know what your talking about as there is no where I’ve written UNHRW your simply a liar or deluded.
“The line dividing a vibrant democracy and a banana republic is rather thin, especially in South America. With a shameful history of countless coups, that line has been crossed several times in this part of the world. Brazil, in the eyes of many at home and abroad, seems to be on the verge of crossing that line all over again … Geoffrey Roberston, a renowned British jurist who has worked with the United Nations, has strongly criticised the whole Brazilian judicial process, especially the role of trial judge Sergio Moro, whom he called a “campaigner and not a judge.
In a hard-hitting interview, Roberston, who was in Brazil on Wednesday, questioned the appeals court chief’s decision to applaud the trial court verdict as “impeccable” even before he had read it. “What sort of banana republic is this? Brazil will become a joke if these judges are allowed to behave like this. That is my concern. Judges must be independent and impartial. And in this case, they are not,” Roberston, who is taking Lula’s case to the UN, told an independent journalists’ group. …Members of the Brazilian judiciary mostly come from the white, conservative and elite section that has traditionally been hostile to the Workers Party and Lula. Also, the lack of any jury system and a culture of forced plea deals give immense power to judges and prosecutors.
As Lula’s conviction was mostly based on statements – and not evidence – obtained in plea deals, many see it a political trial. In a letter to the Guardian this week, some of the world’s top intellectuals and activists called Lula a victim of “lawfare”.”
https://thewire.in/217604/lawfare-lula-jail-former-president-may-throw-brazil-chaos/
@THB
Jan 28th, 2018 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0UNHRW ?? I DO apologize......but much the same as UNHRC....still irrelevant to the toad's case...IN Brazil.
“...Roberston, who was in Brazil on Wednesday, questioned the appeals court chief’s decision to applaud the trial court verdict as “impeccable” even before he had read it.”...
Interesting ...how does Robertson 'know' that Thompsen Flores “ 'applauded' the the trial court verdict as “impeccable” even BEFORE he had read it' ” ??? Did Flores tell Robertson this, or did he just presume it ? like you have...
And if Robertson is so well informed on the Brazilian justice system, he should know that corruption cases do NOT go to trial by jury.
But I agree with his calling Brazil a 'banana republic'....while it might be considered offensive to many Brazilians, not particularly diplomatic on his part...really Terry, you shouldn't support such politically incorrect language, after all, what will that do to your 'impeccable' reputation ?
But don't worry about Lula, 'he' knows he is only a victim of his own crimes....he underestimated the reach of the Law, and thought he could rob Brazil silly and still get away with it. Too bad.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jan 28th, 2018 - 10:36 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Geoffrey Roberston, a renowned British jurist who has worked with the United Nations
“How does Robertson 'know' that Thompsen Flores “ 'applauded' the the trial court verdict”. It must be in the public domain otherwise he would be liable to be impeached by the Bar Assc.
“That corruption cases do NOT go to trial by jury.” He’s well aware and has so stated. Criticism is that all prosecutions that involve the risk of long prison sentences are fundamentally wrong without the option of a trial “by your peers”. A legal right that goes back to the Magna Carter in common law countries. As to his criticism of Moro he is on the money. I can never remember any other judge in any jurisdiction who appeared to have denied fundamental justice to an accused person to the extent he has.
“You shouldn't support such politically incorrect language” I think he’s absolutely correct in this instance, as it doesn’t put Brazil in a good light.
@THill, aka Toothless Wonder
Jan 29th, 2018 - 07:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0No, Robertson just expressed his opinion...your conclusion, as well as his, that it MUST be in the public domain, is just an assumption based on 'personal' preferences...and, just fyi, only weeks after Moro handed down Lula's verdict, Thompsen Flores gave an interview on the 'lavajato”, and at the end, when asked what he thought of Moro's verdict, he said it was technically 'impeccable'...unlikely to say that unless he'd read it ; rather different to your, and Robertson's allegations.
Had bothered to mention it before, but now think it's worthwhile pointing that some statements made by the author of your link, are grossly inaccurate, : one, that there were hundreds of thousands (of Lula supporters) jamming the centre of P.Alegre....the helicopters flying overhead, filmed a very different scenario ; two, a gathering at which Lula spoke (or 'growled') in São Paulo attracted hundreds of thousands...miles off ; three, more than 1,000,000 showed their support (to Lula) across the country....just confirms that the ignorant 'petistas' cant count.
The article claims also “Members of the Brazilian judiciary mostly come from the white, conservative / elite section that has traditionally been hostile to the PT and Lula”....really ? “Traditionally ?”...so which judiciary system let Lula off the hook in 2012 with regards to his participation in the 'mensalão' ? Perhaps the judiciary system of Mars ?
Or was it 'hostile' to him (Lula) when it rejected his attempts to gag the press ?
“The possibility of Lula not being on the ballot has already created a movement on social media asking for the “boycott” of any election without Lula.”
Can well believe that the leftist-press (led by Lula's site) and the disgruntled PT would start a movement like that, and if true, it's probably for the best, as who wants a criminal running for office ?
Don't be concerned over GR's politically incorrect language...was just to yank your chain, numbnuts..
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jan 29th, 2018 - 08:36 pm - Link - Report abuse -2If you’re claiming it’s not then this is your chance to lodge a protest with the English Bar Assn. But I doubt that he is in error as lawyers pronouncements especially against judges are not made lightly. “Rather different to your ...” Again you misstate my post as I am merely the messenger not the author.
Why would you comment on a journalists estimate? When I have not placed any reliance on it, must be a slow day at the office to mention such an irrelevance.
“Members of the Brazilian judiciary mostly come from the white, conservative / elite section” Again you ‘cherry-pick’ items from an article’s Off-topic references. But since you have raised the subject. Mendes has been referred to in the press as ‘leader of the opposition’ vis-a-vis Lula.
I leave the rest of your political tirade and ad hominem mumblings as total irrelevancies.
REF: “shares surge”:
Jan 30th, 2018 - 11:43 am - Link - Report abuse +1- The Euphoria could be a temporary/strategic phase
- May S00N be followed by depression due to disillusion!
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jan 30th, 2018 - 12:07 pm - Link - Report abuse 0UNHRC....still irrelevant … IN Brazil.
While its true it’s not compellable. If in fact there was an adverse ruling against Brazil and she didn’t comply. Then as a signatory to the HR Act she would be in violation of international law. Meaning she is in conflict with the international laws of “civilised nations” and on a par with those of a “banana republic”.
“It’s a complicated case, but in my analysis, neither side has it quite right. As a Brazilian constitutional law professor and Supreme Court researcher, I see Lula’s trials as a marquee example of Brazil’s flawed and inconsistent justice system. It confirms that Brazilian judges are on a moral quest to “cleanse” politics – and they’re willing to bend the law to do it …Lula’s lost appeal is the perfect distillation of what ails the Brazilian legal system. It is one part judicial activism in the name of anti-corruption, one part judicial disregard for legal precedents and due process. With the good intention of “fixing” politics, Brazil’s judges may be breaking the rule of law.” http://www.lmtonline.com/news/article/Presidential-corruption-verdict-shows-just-how-12533001.php
@TH aka Brain-less and Toothless Wonder
Jan 30th, 2018 - 05:23 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I'm not going to 'lodge a protest' with the EBA, couldn't care less about GR, or his opinion. Let him lambast Brazil's judges all he wants, but his statements are of no consequence, other than to confirm his bias.
When you defend the author's point of view, you no are longer 'merely' the messenger.
“Why would I comment on a journalists estimates ?” simply because they are inaccurate ...'fake news', intended to mislead people. Hardly irrelevant.
Not cherry-picking either....while you emphasize that “Members of the Brazilian judiciary mostly come from the white, conservative / elite section”, and that they have “traditionally” been hostile to Lula, I just referred to the ”other big corruption scandal'' (precursor to the 'Petrolão') in which Lula was involved, and the same “white / conservative elite” let him off the hook. ”Ain't the truth a b*tch ?“....think I read that somewhere recently.
What Gilmar Mendes has said or done recently, hardly places him as ”leader of the opposition’ vis-à-vis Lula”...his highly controversial decisions, many times monocratic and in complete disaccord with the majority of his peers, suggests he might be 'for hire’...if he were the 'leader of the opposition, vis-à-vis Lula', why has he been pushing for the revision of the ruling which foresees prison immy after being condemned by a collegiate court ? which, btw, would favour Lula.
Rubens Glezer (FGV) has the right to his opinion, as does Modesto Carvalhosa, eminent Law professor (now retired) at the USP’s Largo de S. Francisco.
For every ‘expert’ that defends Lula, there are more that condemn him. His tiresome claim ‘he knew nothing’ about the ‘mensalão’, is just his favourite ‘mantra’, and the fact that some (the radical left, misguided or champagne socialist intelectuals, and the left-wing press) think Lula was a great president, does not give him a free-pass to steal….something he obviously counted on.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jan 30th, 2018 - 06:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Other than to confirm his bias.” This is in your YHO which has no credibility, here’s absolute the proof. “Your insistence that I'm a fascist, …is proof that you are just blowing hot air” http://en.mercopress.com/2017/05/25/brazilian-ex-presidents-discussing-the-outcome-of-the-political-situation/comments#comment467347
Brazil's corruption scandals reach Lula da Silva: ...
12 Jack Bauer; “..'Military dictatoagreesrship', ..history is showing,.. that it was good for Brazil
“While you emphasize that “Members of the Brazilian judiciary mostly come from the white, conservative / elite section”. That is a complete fabrication, it is you who introduced that statement not I. “For every ‘expert’ that defends Lula, there are more that condemn him.” which you claim without any proof or credibility.
A SIMPLE explanation/solution to: “Brazil shares surge”:
Jan 31st, 2018 - 08:53 am - Link - Report abuse +1https://i1.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/genildo-27.jpg?zoom=0.8999999761581421&resize=482%2C412&ssl=1
@TH aka Brain-less and Tooth-less
Jan 31st, 2018 - 06:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The below excerpt, taken from GR's “hard-hitting interview”, was posted by you 2 days ago (see the 10 th post above)
“ Roberston, who is taking Lula’s case to the UN, told an independent journalists’ group. …Members of the Brazilian judiciary mostly come from the WHITE, CONSERVATIVE AND ELITE that has traditionally been hostile to the Workers Party and Lula.”
I put the part that refers to your lies, in CAPITAL LETTERS
Besides BRAINLESS and TOOTHLESS, you are SENILE.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Jan 31st, 2018 - 10:46 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“Members of the Brazilian judiciary mostly come..” My error you are correct, it wasn’t of great signifcance to the point I was establishing.
“… has the right to his opinion, as does Modesto Carvalhosa”
Here are some of his judgements which appear to be very provincial.
“At 85, Modesto wants to become president of Brazil.” www1.folha.uol.com.br/.../1887455-com-apoio-de-helio-bicudo-m... -
No possible conflict of interest here is there?
“Corruption is a crime for which there is no receipt,” h ttps://brasil.elpais.com › Brasil › Operação Lava Jato
The implication is clear, that there is a necessity for a reduced evidentiary standard.
“I think the UN will not take into account this type of request that has no originality whatsoever” politica.estadao.com.br/.../todo-politico-pilhado-na-corrupcao-diz-
Well, I apparently have a better legal judgement than he has, as I said they would and was proved correct.
@TH, aka Brain-less and Tooth-less
Feb 01st, 2018 - 06:43 pm - Link - Report abuse -1The “Folha” is left-wing and it's editorials aren't worthwhile reading, unless you want to confirm their bias, or to read a bit of fake news. You should have noticed that the Folha’s article is dated 24th September of last year, when Carvalhosa announced his intention to run for president, as an independent, only if Temer - who was then in the middle of a struggle with the Lower House to hold on to his mandate - was kicked out. Not sure if the STF ever ruled on 'independents' running...anyway, seriously doubt he has any intention of being a candidate in October.
Helio Bicudo's backing of Carvalhosa, as well as the latter's announcement, was more symbolical than anything else, but his support was significant, in that the former was a founding member of the PT and knows Lula better than most...besides Carvalhosa and Bicudo, Yves Gandra Martins also shares their opinion that Lula is just another wannabe dictator.
Regarding Carvalhosa's opinion that ““the UN will not take into account this type of request that has no originality whatsoever” , and your gloating ”I apparently have a better legal judgement than he has, as I said they would and was proved correct“, is irrelevant to the legal proceedings in Brazil. Neither the UN , nor your idiotic idol GR, can impose their will on the Brazilian Judiciary, so why don't you take a rest ?
And isn't it ironic that the ”Lei da Ficha Limpa” was approved during Lula's 2nd mandate ? The fact that Lula has become really desperate, to the point of losing all perspective and constantly attacking the judiciary, is not helping his situation...not that acting like a civilized person and going through the correct channels would make any difference.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Feb 01st, 2018 - 09:21 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“Folha” is left-wing and it's editorials aren't worthwhile reading” Any publication that doesn’t endorse Mein Kampf you so label. What relevance are their editorials as I haven’t quoted one. So you can’t refute what was published, so it must be factually correct, which is all that is important.
“Is irrelevant to the legal proceedings in Brazil” While that is true it is also true that Brazil as a signatory to UNHR’ in ignoring a ruling against them would be viewed as a ‘third world back-water’ and Lula would become a renowned celebrity ’prisoner of conscience’.
“Lula has become really desperate, to the point of losing all perspective and constantly attacking the judiciary”
Lula is acting like any innocent person put in that position. All you have indicated is that you have an abysmally limited view, as civilised nations are not supposed to breech the UNHR, as a minimum legal standard. Whereas, by any objective standard he has been clearly ’railroaded’.
“All you have indicated is that you have an abysmally limited view, as civilised nations are not supposed to breech the UNHR, as a minimum legal standard.”
Feb 02nd, 2018 - 12:04 am - Link - Report abuse -1No, he has a reality based view that the UN can't and won't do anything, do matter how unfair Lula's trial, or how selectively justice is applied. You've even admitted it yourself. And plenty of people already think Brazil is a third world backwater, they won't care about that.
PS. This time I really am supporting Jack Bauer. Suck it. ;)
DemonTree the slavish follower
Feb 02nd, 2018 - 12:58 am - Link - Report abuse 0“He has a reality based view that the UN can't and won't do anything,” Nobody has claimed otherwise, do try to keep up.
“This time I really am supporting Jack Bauer. Suck it.” When have you ever done otherwise? Be like you, I’ll leave you to do what you do best, sucking and toadying.
@TH, aka Brain-less and Tooth-less
Feb 02nd, 2018 - 03:09 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Right, you didn't quote any 'Folha' editorials, you just provided the links...what's the difference numbnuts ?
And you go on to demonstrate your blind stupidity, by saying, “So you can’t refute what was published, so it must be factually correct, which is all that is important.”
So because something is published it must be factually correct ?...to you, specially if it's published in Lula's pathetic site. Lap it up you brain-less twit.
If the UN does 'this' and Brazil does not do 'that' etc.......If “ifs 'n ands were pots and pans, there'd be no work for tinkers” ....
“renowned celebrity ’prisoner of conscience' ” ??...Don't make me laugh.....but since you have mentioned 'toadying', it's no use trying to compare, or insinuating that the corrupt, finger-less toad from São Bernardo, is equal to Nelson Mandela...Mandela was not corrupt.
Only someone who is guilty and knows they have no defense, resorts to attacking the institutions.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Feb 02nd, 2018 - 04:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“You didn't quote any 'Folha' editorials, you just provided the links...what's the difference”
It is a citation below, only as loon could possibly mistake a one sentence reference as an editorial.
“At 85, Modesto wants to become president of Brazil.”
The only person editorialising is you since I blew your champion out of the water, just on the facts pertaining to him.
By the time your corrupt legal/political system is finished with Lula’s martyrdom. Brazil will have made him a cause célèbre.
This is not my first rodeo, I’ve been involved in enough of these cases of miscarriages of justice to predict that it’s going cost Brazil any prestige she may have had and place her in very bad light internationally.
Only those that had their human rights abused lay a complaint before the UNHRC. They would not have accepted his case if he didn’t have a prima facia case. His complaint was laid well conclusion of his trial.
@TH, aka Brain-less, Tooth-less, Notion-less
Feb 02nd, 2018 - 06:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It is a ‘citation’ which refers to a link, which refers to a ‘Folha’ editorial… you ARE senile.
Numbnuts, I don’t have any champions, but you obviously do… “Lula’s martyrdom”….bloody pathetic. And slightly weird.
May not be your first rodeo, but it’s clear you have never won the prize. Your belief that Lula’s conviction will in any way harm Brazil’s ‘prestige’, is sadly wrong….d’you think the international community has nothing better to think about ?
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Feb 02nd, 2018 - 08:29 pm - Link - Report abuse -1It may well have been extracted from an editorial. But my post is one line referencing a fact. The only editorialising here is you with nothing but your deeply flawed opinions. You do that since you can’t avail yourself of any support from facts.
“You think the international community has nothing better to think about”
Your pro-dictatorship anti-democratic stance is not a very good credential for judging how the international community will respond to blatant breaches of human rights. For many nations it is a prerequisite for ‘favoured nation status’ just check out what had happened to Yugoslavia, Iran, Iraq, North Korea et al as their options vis-a-vis the international community are rather limited.
Don't be silly, Terence. The former Yugoslavians committed genocide, it's not remotely comparable. As for the others, their main crime was severely pissing off the USA, and the Temer government is not about to do THAT.
Feb 02nd, 2018 - 09:56 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Other countries such as Saudi Arabia and China can violate human rights all day without a single problem with the international community. Not to mention the US still hasn't closed Guantanamo Bay, which is one giant human rights violation.
And are you now quoting editorials as fact? Those things are opinion, perhaps you need to redo that lesson for 3rd graders explaining the difference? I'm sure you can find your link, you must have them all saved since you repeat them so tirelessly, and tiresomely.
@JB
+1 for 'And slightly weird.' It made me laugh.
Wow funny how much of this thread (before chuckle brothers Jack and Terence took over) is about me, even though I barely commented. And I don't think anyone (even me, in my first small comment) has pointed out either the distastefulness of the market responding so bullishly to an attack on democracy, or to the shortsightedness of such a share surge, given that anyone who knows anything about business knows political turmoil isn't good for it, and this conviction sure will cause some. No-one's answered my genuine question about whether Dilma's eligible to stand either - I so hope she is!
Feb 03rd, 2018 - 10:02 am - Link - Report abuse 0DT: “I don't believe he would be raving about how wonderful and beautiful and other puke-worthy adjectives CFK is if she espoused neo-liberal policies”
I still don't get why your so determinedly, almost obsessively ungallant about Cristina. I compliment a woman I admire, how is that puke-worthy? If you don't want to join in you don't have to say anything - have you never heard of “if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all”? I understand why the Macrists and British chauvinists want to denigrate her, but for you as a usually open minded and reasonable commenter to be constantly tearing down my praise and implying she's a disgusting hag is just weird. But yes if there was a neoliberal as beautiful and badass as her I wouldn't be raving as much ;)
Kanye: “I don't “agree” with Think. We have simply arrived at the same conclusion”
Lol =) But I'll actually help you out, I'm not sure if you came to exactly the same conclusion. Think didn't say I was winding people up, if I remember right he said I was redressing the balance of the real hate that others post towards her, which is a lot more accurate actually than your “conclusion”. Of course, if it also winds the likes of you up, I don't mind ;)
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Feb 03rd, 2018 - 10:47 am - Link - Report abuse +1“Saudi Arabia and China can violate human rights…” True, but Brazil isn’t essential to the to the economic order. Nor are their human rights violations as well documented as Lula’s.
Are you now quoting editorials as fact? NO my post is one line referencing A FACT which has nothing to do with an opinion.
@BK
Feb 03rd, 2018 - 11:47 am - Link - Report abuse -2I don't know, that wanting to puke feeling is just my natural reaction to what to me is very over-the-top praise. I certainly don't think she's a disgusting hag or anything of the sort, she's a politician who had some policies I wouldn't support, and she was anti-British, which tends to prejudice me against her. I don't like seeing the other commentors insult her in ridiculous ways either, but I don't think yours is the best way to counter it.
@TH
Brazil has a pretty big economy and moreover is pro-US. They'll be fine.
If your 'one line' is a fact then you should have no trouble finding a better source for it than someone else's opinion. Do so.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Feb 03rd, 2018 - 02:02 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Are you now quoting editorials as fact? NO my post is one line referencing A FACT which has nothing to do with an opinion.
“At 85, Modesto wants to become president of Brazil.” Which is conceded by JB “Regarding Carvalhosa's opinion that the UN will not take into account this type of request … is irrelevant to the legal proceedings in Brazil“.
“Do so..” I don’t take orders from anyone if you’re refuting then bear burden and produce the proof, do so.
How to argue, according to Terence Hill (aged 9 3/4):
Feb 03rd, 2018 - 04:18 pm - Link - Report abuse 01. Claim something. This need not be true or make sense.
2. Always insist the other person has the burden of proof, no matter what. Remember, logical fallacies only apply to other people.
3. Insult them. If they insult you back, claim you have won the argument. Remember, logical fallacies only apply to other people.
4. If they show evidence, find some random irrelevant quote and claim you have won the argument.
5. If they point out you are cherry picking evidence, bring up a previous argument which you lost but claimed to have won, and declare you have won the argument. This is argumentum ad hominem, but that's okay. Logical fallacies only apply to other people.
Did I miss anything?
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Feb 03rd, 2018 - 04:53 pm - Link - Report abuse +2“Claim something” I did, three statements that are in the press with citations.
“Insist the other person has the burden of proof” Only when I have provided citations and the contrary. “Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing “side” to prove the evidence presented is not adequate” Deep thinking, Philosophy; Burden of proof
“Remember, logical fallacies only apply to other people.” Without proof, your opinion is simply so much fiction.
“If they show evidence..” If this were true you’ed her able to move from the general to the particular, which you can’t.
“This is argumentum ad hominem…” If this true you'd have no trouble proving.
So to conclude, you have made six unproven claims. Which, since “Thoughts are either true or false in an absolute sense, never both or neither.”
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy; States of Affairs; First published Tue Mar 27, 2012
Since it is your obligation to provide proof and you have failed. It cannot be true, therefor you have shown you are a liar.
DT I don't think she's anti-British actually, she just wanted to talk and was naturally not supportive of Cameron's response of sending in more troops. What policies of hers wouldn't you support? Any you would? On balance, do you think Macri (bearing in mind your very accurate and incisive criticisms of him and his fanboys) is doing a better or worse job?
Feb 03rd, 2018 - 07:38 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“that wanting to puke feeling is just my natural reaction to what to me is very over-the-top praise...I don't like seeing the other commentors insult her in ridiculous ways either”
If you really don't like it why not keep your puking feeling to yourself, surely you know you're giving succour to the trolls, not that they'll remember whenever next you criticise Macri or our own government. Reminds me of what we always say about the LibDems, that if you lie in the middle of the road you get run over by both sides, and if you sit on the fence you'll just get a sore bum!
@BK
Feb 03rd, 2018 - 09:16 pm - Link - Report abuse -1She was anti-British in effect if not in intention.
Policies of hers that I wouldn't support were the subsidised utilities, high taxes on exports and even banning beef exports temporarily, and the large tariffs on electronics. There probably were some I would support, but the majority of posters here are opposed to her so they don't bring them up, and I didn't start paying attention until after Macri was president.
And because of that I wouldn't like to say who is doing a better job.
“if you lie in the middle of the road you get run over by both sides”
Yes, and sometimes I am tempted to pick a side. It's human nature to want to fit in with the group, but most people here are way too extreme for me.
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