MercoPress. South Atlantic News Agency
Supreme Court rejects Lula's petition: must start prison term
The Supreme Federal Court of Brazil (STF) decided to reject the judicial appeal filed by former President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva to appeal while in freedom to a sentence for corruption that remains pending, so the former president should enter the prison and begin compliance of the sentence. Read full article
Comments
Disclaimer & comment rulesBad for Lula, but it can't be good for Brazil to leave convicted criminals free through years' worth of appeals. IF Lula is innocent, then it's up to the courts to say so, not allow the guilty and innocent alike to escape the consequences of their conviction.
Apr 05th, 2018 - 01:16 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I looked up who voted each way, to compare it to JB's prediction. According to FdSP, it came down to Rosa Weber's vote since all the others were very predictable:
JB's prediction:
For prison: Barroso, Fuchs, Fachin, Carmen Lucia
Against prison: Lewandowski, Tofolli, Marco Aurelio, Gilmar Mendes, Celso de Mello, Rosa Weber
Unknown: Alexandre de Morais
Vote according to FdSP:
For prison: Fachin, de Moraes, Barroso, Fux, Lúcia, Rosa Weber
Against prison: Mendes, Toffoli, Lewandowski, Aurélio, de Mello
It also looks like all the judges appointed by Dilma voted against Lula, interesting.
“There is no real justice in politics.”
Apr 05th, 2018 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse -1https://www.gresham.ac.uk/lecture/transcript/download/the-suez-crisis-1956/
UNCHR gets that much closer.
To reduce the supreme tribunal ruling to a judicial issue is to leave out the context in which it was delivered.
Apr 05th, 2018 - 07:51 pm - Link - Report abuse 0For starters, the above story fails to mention an intense mainstream media campaign prior to the ruling and the fact the supreme tribunal members deliberated and decided under threats of impending coup d'etat if they dared to issue a ruling favourable to Lula.
With just a few hours before the tribunal was to rule Wednesday, Army Commander-in-Chief, Eduardo Villas-Boas, tweeted that the armed forces “rejects impunity.”
Other superior officers such as general Luiz Gonzaga Schroeder Lessa told reporters that if the tribunal did not give the green light to Lula's prison sentence, the “only option left would be a military intervention.”
The judges' vote was pretty much known in advance but that of Rosa Weber. Now: how free to decide a judge may be under threat of military action?
A story unsympathetic to Lula noted that judge Sergio Moro failed to convincingly link the famous Guaruja beach apartment to Lula’s role as president—a link that must exist in order for favor to be classified as bribe.
Other sources go even further to say there is no proof that Lula ever received, had title to or occupied the $700,000 apartment in exchange for favours -- the crime he was sentenced for.
Simply put, Brazil's elites are not taking any chances preventing Lula from running in the October presidential election -- even at the risk of emptying the election from his front runner.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/brazil-lula-carwash-corruption-temer-due-process-dilma/552056/
@EM
Apr 05th, 2018 - 09:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0It doesn't mention the generals' threats here, but the story is on this site, you commented on it yourself.
It didn't stop 5 of the judges voting against sending Lula to jail, anyway. I'm curious now why all the judges appointed by Lula's predecessors voted in his favour, and all the judges appointed by his protege Dilma voted against him. I would have expected it to be the other way around.
I know there is more going on here, but I can't help thinking this is the right decision in general. They weren't considering Lula's guilt or innocence, but whether people who are rich enough to afford endless appeals can basically get away with their crimes. You prefer it in this case because you think Lula isn't guilty, but you wouldn't support it in general, would you?
@DT
Apr 05th, 2018 - 09:14 pm - Link - Report abuse 0After giving 2 possible scenarios (7 x 4 and/or 6 x 5 in favour of Lula), I ended with ”or, perhaps even 5 to 5 (if Morais and Weber do the right thing), in which case Carmen Lucia (the vote of Minerva), will decide the toad's fate“.
My two doubts were Alexandre de Morais & Rosa Weber, and am glad to see they did their duty. Close enough to the ”Folha's prediction.
Now, as Lula is a bad sport, his lawyers will go to the TRF-4 to request an 'appeal of the appeal'...only purpose of which is to delay his imprisonment, as it'll be thrown out. (only purpose of the endless appeals is to avoid criminals being jailed, until their crimes prescribe).
It will take about 10 days for the TRF-4 to give their final decision, so by the mid-April, AGW, the toad should be where he belongs : in a common prison cell, amongst the people he alleges to love so much....
Latest news : Moro has just ordered Lula's arrest, and he has until tomorrow 5 pm to present himself.
@EM
“To reduce the supreme tribunal ruling to a judicial issue is to leave out the context in which it was delivered.” WHAT ???
The context in which it was delivered (to the STF) was ONLY to vote 'for' or against' Lula's HC, i.e., to avoid his (virtually imminent) imprisonment .....the STF does not judge the merit of the case (evidence, or otherwise), but simply checks legal procedure...and based on jurisprudence of the same Supreme Court in 2016, that the prison sentence should be applied almost immy after conviction by an appellate court (TRF-4, in Lula's case), there is nothing strange in yesterday's decision (by the STF).
What's wrong with the Army's Commander-in-chief 'rejecting impunity' ? the message would only scare a judge that was unable to fundament his/her decision on the Law....and the 6 of the 11 STF judges decided to respect their own jurisprudence of 2016.
Reekie , you are a blind 'cagão', preferring to ignore the proof and that it is only Lula's fault he is in the sh*t....
April 5, 2018
Apr 05th, 2018 - 09:44 pm - Link - Report abuse -1The denial of the Federal Supreme Court to grant former President Lula the petition for habeas corpus after most of the Justices in the Full Court expressed their opinions in favor of the interpretation of the presumption of innocence guarantee (Federal Constitution, Article 5, XVII), as it is defended in this constitutional action, violates the dignity of the human person and other fundamental guarantees. The defense will take all the applicable legal measures in order to avoid the early execution of the sentence imposed by the Regional Federal Court of the 4th Region, because in addition to not complying with the Federal Constitution, said decision that convicted Lula of corruption based on “unspecified acts” without any proof that he requested or received undue advantage is illegal. The conviction imposed on Lula goes against precedents established by Higher Courts as well as precedents set by International Courts of Human Rights both because it is based on the word of a co-defendant and because it is imposed in a criminal action marked by manifest nullities; in addition, said conviction is incompatible with the legal description of the crimes of which the former President is accused by the prosecution. This is why we firmly expect that said conviction will be overturned by a fair, impartial and independent body.
CRISTIANO ZANIN MARTINS AND VALESKA TEIXEIRA ZANIN MARTINS
@JB
Apr 05th, 2018 - 10:06 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Yes. Folha seemed to think Rosa Weber was the only judge whose decision wasn't a foregone conclusion. And she actually did change her mind from 2016, according to Folha, as back then she thought the constitution was clear that no one should be jailed until all appeals were exhausted. Also, I think de Moraes had not yet been appointed in 2016?
I knew you'd be pleased at the news. Why's Moro in such a hurry if they'll have to wait another 10 days anyway?
“What's wrong with the Army's Commander-in-chief 'rejecting impunity' ?”
Exactly that the judges are supposed to base their decision on the law, not be influenced by threats from the armed forces. It's worse than bribing them, because the generals are threatening the whole country.
You may say impunity is clearly a bad thing - though those earlier generals who took part in the military government didn't agree - but the judges' job is to interpret the law, not change it if they dislike it. That's up to the government.
Miracles - UNEXPECTED - happen:
Apr 05th, 2018 - 10:18 pm - Link - Report abuse +1https://i1.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/BOOPO-CARMEN-LUCUA-LULA.jpg?resize=498%2C420&ssl=1
Which Corrupt is the NEXT candidate?
@DT
Apr 05th, 2018 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse +1TH the Liar carries on with this ‘presumption of innocence” BS….how can anyone, having been convicted in two courts (the only two where evidence/proof can be presented/refuted) have the benefit of still being considered innocent, until the case is tried and concluded in the STF ? Never heard so much crap.
It’s just a legal travesty, a gimmick to protect the corrupt while they appeal endlessly to stay out of jail. It is totally immoral and should be revoked. In no other civilized country does such crap exist….only Brazil…wonder why ? just a rhetorical question.
The Zanin family, known for its incompetence, will say anything to save their boss’s ass….Just like Terry, the Liar.
Morais was the last judge to be appointed, to substitute Teori Zavaski (died in aircrash);
Perhaps the TRF-4 has already decided they will reject any further useless appeals from Lula (as they'll make no difference) , and authorized Moro to expedite Lula’s arrest warrant. Why delay 10 days if the toad can go to prison tomorrow ?
The petistas are all “horrified” at the General’s comments, in that they “put undue pressure on the judges”…the lefties as usual, are exaggerating, trying to turn the comments in to something that will benefit them ; but, is that any different to the PT’s cornering the STF president in her chambers, to pressure her, Gleisi Hoffman’s (and the MST’s) public threats about bloodshed in the streets if Lula is jailed, and the various attempts to intimidate the STF (Fachin and his family receiving death threats) etc ? I don’t think so…anyway, did the General tell a lie when he said that all honest citizens expect and want a Brazil without corruption and impunity ? Definitely NO….as I said, only those who have reason to be afraid, reacted negatively.
To finalize, the majority of the judges just followed their own jurisprudence, established in 2016. The 5 who voted in favour of Lula chose to ignore it.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 05th, 2018 - 11:20 pm - Link - Report abuse -1“In no other civilized country does such crap exist”
Exactly, by former UN appeal judge, Human Rights barrister Geoffrey Robertson QC Brazil is considered a a “primitive justice system”.
Nor would Lula ever have been convicted in any country that subscribes to the “common law system” US, UK, Commonwealth countries
Whereas your untruths are so common place.
JB “Your insistence that I'm a fascist”
Brazil's corruption scandals reach Lula da Silva: ...
12 Jack Bauer; “..'Military dictatorship', ..history is showing,.. that it was good for Brazil
50 Jack Bauer; “Military taking over again, ….. they did it to prevent Brazil from being handed over to the communists. ... the Military , I hope, would be there again to save Brazil
Brazil remembers the 50th anniversary of the coupe…
15 Jack Bauer; “..Am pretty sure that military are accompanying all this … I hope they DO take over...”
JB “The military option was better than the communist”
“The US can point to nothing even remotely threatening done by the Brazilian Communist Party”
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lormand/poli/soa/brazil.htm
@DT
Apr 06th, 2018 - 12:28 am - Link - Report abuse 0The deed is done.
Judge Sergio Moro has not lost time in ordering Lula's behind bars, knowing Lula wasn't going to stop campaigning through the country as he has been doing.
The expected effect being to put Brazilians in front of the “fait accompli,” with lightning speed, to reduce reaction time after Wednesday's ruling.
This unprecedented judicial farce was based on pure fiction: an apartment that was never Lula's property, that has just been auctioned with the money going to the company that is the real owner.
This was done without solid proof, using the testimony of a convicted who benefited from it, and based on “he must've known” reasoning lacking legal evidence.
@JB
You should be ashamed of supporting this disgusting maneuver that you know well is shredding Brazil's incipient democracy. Not that you care--just the opposite.
@DT
“I know there is more going on here, but I can't help thinking this is the right decision in general.”
Obviously you believe there is some basis for this masquerade disguised as a judicial process. Can't blame you because most English-language reporters will dutifully attempt to write 'balanced' pieces that consider judicial decisions as soundly based--which is far from being the case in the embattled Latin America of our days.
“They weren't considering Lula's guilt or innocence, but whether people who are rich enough to afford endless appeals can basically get away with their crimes.”
The principle behind decisions to imprison people right after sentencing is based on flight risk, ability to tamper with evidence, or otherwise interfering with process by, for example, intimidating witnesses--putting in prison before appeals are exhausted responds to the need to parade the targets in prison attire for all to see. If “they” were sincere they would just speed up appeals.
@EM:
Apr 06th, 2018 - 08:24 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “They weren't considering Lula's guilt or...........................................get away with their crimes”
TRUE
REF: “The principle behind decisions to imprison people ..............were sincere they would just speed up appeals”:
TRUE TOO!
The only problem with this; is a FLOOD of [at times; meanigless] appeals in an already overburdened [and somewhat inefficient] judicial system.
And some food for thought:
https://abrilveja.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/nc3a9o-correia-31-01-2018.jpg?quality=70&strip=info&strip=info
@EM
Apr 06th, 2018 - 11:06 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Can't blame you because most English-language reporters will dutifully attempt to write 'balanced' pieces that consider judicial decisions as soundly based--which is far from being the case in the embattled Latin America of our days.”
That's not the only reason. I'm sure in Canada as in the UK, it is normal to imprison people as soon as they are sentenced, and they conduct their appeals from jail. I've never seen you complain about that, or say it's because they need to parade someone in prison attire, so why is it suddenly a bad thing in Brazil? And if they decided to speed up the appeals instead you'd just complain they were rushing through them in order to get Lula in jail quicker.
The original triplex case is different, I can't go and read all the evidence in Portuguese so I can only rely on newspapers to say how good it is. JB found it convincing, but he's hardly an impartial judge.
“The expected effect being to put Brazilians in front of the “fait accompli,” with lightning speed, to reduce reaction time after Wednesday's ruling.”
That may well be right, they know this decision will be extremely unpopular with a large segment of the population so want to get it over with as soon as possible.
@JB
I don't really see the point of delaying 10 days, but I'm not the one faced with 12 years in jail. How do you think Teori Zavaski would have voted?
”is that any different to the PT’s cornering the STF president in her chambers, to pressure her, Gleisi Hoffman’s (and the MST’s) public threats about bloodshed in the streets if Lula is jailed, and the various attempts to intimidate the STF (Fachin and his family receiving death threats) etc”
Well, is it? You complained about the PT cornering the STF president, presumably you don't think threatening bloodshed in the streets is okay, and sending death threats to a judge's family is surely a crime. The veiled threat of a coup is no more acceptable, why wouldn't people object?
Brazil’s Democracy Pushed Into the Abyss
Apr 06th, 2018 - 11:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0“The evidence against Mr. da Silva is far below the standards that would be taken seriously in, for example, the United States’ judicial system. … The bribe alleged to have been received by Mr. da Silva is an apartment owned by OAS. But there is no documentary evidence that either Mr. da Silva or his wife ever received title to, rented or even stayed in the apartment, nor that they tried to accept this gift.
The evidence against Mr. da Silva is based on the testimony of one convicted OAS executive, José Aldemário Pinheiro Filho, who had his prison sentence reduced in exchange for turning state’s evidence. According to reporting by the prominent Brazilian newspaper Folha de São Paulo, Mr. Pinheiro was blocked from plea bargaining when he originally told the same story as Mr. da Silva about the apartment. He also spent about six months in pretrial detention.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/opinion/brazil-lula-democracy-corruption.html
@TH, aka the Brainless Liar
Apr 06th, 2018 - 04:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I wrote : “In no other civilized country does such crap exist”. You replied : Exactly, by former UN appeal judge, Human Rights barrister Geoffrey Robertson QC Brazil is considered a a “primitive justice system”. So, 1st : the jurisprudence referred to by the 6 judges, to deny Lula’s HC, was established 2016 (under Dilma, by judges appointed mostly by her. 2nd, had the STF ruled in Lula’s favour, would your idol, G. Robertson, not have praised the same “primitive justice system” ?
The key issue here, is why should any justice system privilege endless appeals, designed only to keep criminals out of jail ? and which can only be used by those with money who can afford expensive lawyers ?
Changing the subject, instead of constantly contradicting yourself, just tell us why 1) you implied I had claimed I was American, (2) you associate fascism with conservatism, when in fact it’s a leftist philosophy ? Or, are they just ‘mistakes of fact’ ?
Leo Pinheiro “had his prison sentence reduced in exchange for turning state’s evidence”…right, from 11 years to 3 ½ years…that is the law, here and in the 1st world.
@EM
'You' should be ashamed to identify yourself morally with Brazil’s largest, all-time crook. Haven’t you read ANY of the trial transcripts where his crimes are listed…and proved ? And, the PT will always complain, regardless of whether justice is swift , or slow…just depends on what suits them.
@DT
“JB found it convincing, but he's hardly an impartial judge.”….. I think I am…I watched all the testimony by Lula, his and the prosecution’s witnesses. I read extensively about the evidence, or the lack of it, the proof presented by the prosecution - pointing to false evidence furnished by Zanin, etc…and the reason I’ve only focused on Lula, is because at this moment, HE is the defendant.
IMO, Zavaski would’ve voted against Lula.
“Veiled threat” ? interpretation 'n reactions (posit/negat) all depend what side you're on.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 06th, 2018 - 05:46 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“You implied I had claimed I was American” I made no such implication.
“You associate fascism with conservatism” I associate fascism with those whom have given nothing but support for the dictatorship and wished for its return. http://en.mercopress.com/2018/04/04/brazil-s-conundrum-army-chief-twits-good-citizens-repudiate-impunity-and-respect-the-constitution/comments#comment486481
Leo Pinheiro gave unsubstantiated evidence
“The evidence against Mr. da Silva is far below the standards that would be taken seriously in, for example, the United States’ judicial system. …”
h ttps://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/23/opinion/brazil-lula-democracy-corruption.html
@JB
Apr 06th, 2018 - 06:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Fascism isn't a leftist philosophy. It takes some elements from the left, but more from the right. Fascists have always been strongly oppose to communism and liberalism, they love nationalism, militarism, 'traditional values', and conformism.
As for being impartial, you *hate* Lula, and you believed he was guilty long before Moro charged him with anything. I believe you tried to be fair, but you *can't* just forget everything you knew already and look at the case with fresh eyes. Our brains don't work that way.
RE the generals, what Lessa said was not veiled at all, he openly threatened a coup. A little difficult for the judges to be impartial in those circumstances, no?
@DT
Apr 06th, 2018 - 08:21 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Re EM trying to make a difference, what enormous difference was he trying to make in a country (Canada) where the difference is negligible if compared to Brazil ? Even if you want to consider his selflessness in trying to improve social conditions, he would also be advocating for himself, quite different to someone rich, in Brazil, preaching equality where most are poor .
Forget the ‘Brasileiro’...he's an ignorant idiot...similar to TH.
Fascism is used freely by the left to label their adversaries from the right, as if the latter were Nazis, but the simple fact is that the 'Nazi' comes from Nat’l Socialists, who had their root in both sides of the ideological spectrum. Fascism, confounded with Nazism, was never an extreme right ideology, being more to the left of centre. But if fascism is conveniently confounded with Nazism by the left (and commonly referred to as 'extreme right'), what about the fact that Nazism and socialism have a lot in common ? But the left does not like national socialism (Nazism) being associated to them, so they label the right as fascists. People who like to define Nazism as extreme right, defend this thesis despite its unquestioned socialist roots, by trying to tell us that Nazism was “righted” by Hitler…the leftist characterization of fascism seem less evident if /when compared to the Nazis. Some people prefer to classify fascism as a 3rd option, with characteristics of both sides (right and left)... so neither fascism, nor nazism, should be classified as extreme right, as both have characteristics of both right, and Left.
Right, I started to dislike Lula long before the “lavajato”,because I knew of his corrupt ways since 1972/3. When rumours of his corruption started to surface, in 2007 (“Mensalão”), I was inclined to believe them....He was let off the hook, but his 'innocent' verdict never convinced me...my beliefs were not based on speculation.
Despite Lessa's “threats”, the judges still voted as per their prior convictions.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 06th, 2018 - 09:40 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Fascism, confounded with Nazism, was never an extreme right ideology, being more to the left of centre.”
Like everything else you spout on about, its absolute nonsense [mass noun]
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
• (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices: this is yet another example of health fascism in action.
The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43); the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also Fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.
ORIGIN
1920s: from Italian fascismo, from fascio ‘bundle, political group’, from Latin fascis (see fasces) .
British English Thesaurus
fascism
noun
authoritarianism, totalitarianism, dictatorship, despotism, autocracy, absolute rule, Nazism, rightism, militarism; nationalism, xenophobia, racism, anti-Semitism, chauvinism, jingoism, isolationism; neo-fascism, neo-Nazism; corporativism, corporatism; German, historical Hitlerism; Spanish, historical Francoism, Falangism. ANTONYMS democracy; liberalism.
@JB
Apr 06th, 2018 - 09:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Per his site, EM was trying to fight corruption. Much less serious in Canada than in Brazil, but still worth fighting, no? If he's going to live in Canada then I think it's right he tries to do something there, at the local level, rather than only caring about his birth country.
Not sure what you're saying about preaching equality, it sounds like you're trying to have it both ways; anyone poor preaching equality is just trying to benefit themselves, anyone rich is a hypocrite. For myself, I don't mind paying taxes as long as the government spends them wisely. Unfortunately, my government is inclined to waste them on counterproductive wars, and yours on lining their own pockets. EM probably has the best deal there.
I've always heard fascism and Nazism described as extreme right,
as a contrast to communism on the extreme left. But it's more complicated than that, remember that politics test we both took, with two axes? One was left-right, the other was libertarian--authoritarian. Fascism is very authoritarian, so not particularly similar to libertarians on either the left or the right. Most modern leftists would see Fascist values as extremely opposite to their own, more so than modern right-wingers I think, and modern Neo-Nazi's certainly don't think of themselves as left-wing.
”When rumours of his corruption started to surface, in 2007 (“Mensalão”), I was inclined to believe them.”
It's interesting how much someone's prior beliefs can influence them. All experiments in medicine must be double-blind for this reason, meaning that neither the doctors nor the patients know who is taking the real drug, and who the placebo. If they do know, the experiment is ruined because patients imagine themselves better when taking the real drug, and the doctors rate them better too, and all without meaning to, or even realising it. It's okay for you to have opinion beforehand, but not so for the judge, or the jury if there had been one.
No room... hey Terry, you're a liar.
“No room... hey Terry, you're a liar.” No basis, and a dicredited source.“AN ASSERTION IS A STATEMENT OFFERED AS A CONCLUSION WITHOUT SUPPORTING EVIDENCE. SINCE AN ARGUMENT IS DEFINED AS A LOGICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PREMISE AND CONCLUSION, A SIMPLE ASSERTION IS NOT AN ARGUMENT.”
Apr 06th, 2018 - 10:12 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ignoring the Burden of Proof http://learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
So if its 'truth' is unsupported, then it follows it cannot be true” By failing to meet his obligation the asserter is de facto 'silent' and thus supports the opposition. Thus, he is also subject to 'adverse inference'
Woot, it worked. Thanks Terry. ;)
Apr 06th, 2018 - 10:47 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Ctnd...
“Despite Lessa's “threats”, the judges still voted as per their prior convictions.”
Most of the judge's votes were well known before the verdict. Only Weber's was unexpected and she voted against her prior judgement... according to her because she thought the judges should respect the previous decision. Who knows if she was influenced by the threats, maybe even she does not know.
I understand that most people form their opinion by reading media reports about the judiciary process that is going to end the freedom and the electoral chances of Lula da Silva. As a result, for many Lula is a crook, should not run in the election, and should also lose his personal freedom for a good 12 years.
Apr 07th, 2018 - 04:50 am - Link - Report abuse 0Now, Lula is a 72-year-old man, who has been campaigning like he was 30. During my lifetime, I have seen many presidents being deposed in Latin America. Many negotiated their 'voluntary' resignation and went home. Others flew to asylum countries, and lived well afterwards. Only a few, such as Chilean president Allende, refused to go, refused to surrender, and were assassinated while still exercising their position.
Lula has put his convictions on the line, ahead of personal considerations. There is no question that the Brazilian right would have been happy to leave Lula alone had he offered to quit the race, go home and be quiet. Or, he could have gone to a country with no extradition agreement with Brazil, and remain there to enjoy the “millions” he allegedly “stole” from his people.
Instead, he chose to stay, to fight, and to risk spending in prison pretty much what remains of his active life.
What else may have been expected from a former president who lifted 20 million people out of poverty in one of the most unequal countries in the world--a feat not even attempted by most Brazilian governments?
@EM:
Apr 07th, 2018 - 11:10 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “he chose to stay, to fight, and to risk spending in prison pretty much what remains of his active life”:
- He already KNEW that The Eunuchs don't have the BALLS to keep him behind bars [at least long enough]. REF:
https://amarildocharge.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/blog2.jpg
- Are you referring to the guy at the helms of the PT Regime of about 15 years; during which the Mensalão & Lava Jato “FLOURISHED”?
I'm glad to know that you really are getting more & more entertaining each day!
P.S.: By the way, only those of the corrupt became known as The Corrupt AND ended up behind the bars were those who did not share their loot - more or less - equally amongst the rest of the corrupts.
- Amnesty International Brazil director Jurema Werneck said: “It is greatly disturbing that the Army Commander appears to be pressuring and threatening the Brazilian Supreme Court.” https://www.aljazeera.com/.../brazil-court-rejects-president-lula-bid-avoid-prison-1804..
Apr 07th, 2018 - 02:58 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“United Nations Human Rights Committee in Geneva. It is expected to consider a petition this month claiming that Lula is being denied a fair trial and that Brazil is in breach of international human rights law of which it is a signatory. … ‘What we are seeing is lawfare, a conjunction of war and law which is the misuse and abuse of the law for political persecution’
‘Lula was convicted by Judge Sergio Moro in a lower court with no evidence of wrongdoing – indeed overwhelming evidence of his innocence was produced and then ignored,’ say the defence lawyers.
h ttps://newint.org/features/web-exclusive/2018/01/01/lula-trial-lawfare
@TH
Apr 07th, 2018 - 03:44 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Already commented wrt your remarks.
By the way:
https://i1.wp.com/www.humorpolitico.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Fim-do-Julgamento-do-Lula.jpg?resize=768%2C768&ssl=1
@EM
Apr 07th, 2018 - 05:32 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I wonder if you're right? But since he didn't 'quit the race, go home and be quiet' we'll never know.
Anyway, you say most people form their opinion by reading media reports. Do you mind telling me how you formed your opinion? Did you look at the evidence from the trial yourself to decide how convincing it is?
The BBC says he has agreed to hand himself in to police, so it'll be over soon... for now.
@DT
Apr 07th, 2018 - 07:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0TH finally answered 'n proved he doesN'T know what fascism is...he thinks it applies only to the right, but a lot of “his” definition, taken from the British English Thesaurus - becos he's incapable of explaining it himself - applies equally to the left.
OK, I'll give EM credit for his 'fight against corruption“, am prepared to recognize his efforts, as in this case, it's the intention that counts.
”sounds like you're trying to have it both ways; anyone poor preaching equality is just trying to benefit themselves, anyone rich is a hypocrite.”
No. What I criticized was 'a few' of the rich in Brazil, living like kings while preaching socialism, and better conditions for the poor (the latter, very noble IF they put their money where their mouth is - they don't) without lifting a finger to make it happen...in other words, let someone else do it, with someone else's money, never theirs. Also, I'm not against the less privileged preaching equality, but as long as they aspire to it through taking advantage of opportunities (hopefully) offered by govt, providing better health/education, and not by expecting all their wishes to be attended overnight, through handouts. I think I've made it pretty clear here, that I don't mind paying taxes, if spent for the good of the population, instead of serving the corrupt politicians and those who get into bed with them.
“I've always heard fascism / Nazism described as extreme right,”.....I did too, until a few years ago...what surprised me when I looked into it , was its origin and the similarity with BOTH the extremes.
“not particularly similar to libertarians on either the left or the right”...Right, not similar to libertarians, but to the extreme left (communism). Concepts can be changed overtime, just depends how they are used to depict something.
My prior beliefs about Lula were not based on speculation, I knew what he was.
”the judges voted as per prior convictions”, shows Lessa's 'threat' didn't influence them.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 07th, 2018 - 07:30 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I’m perfectly capable answering the question what fascism is. The dictionary clearly shows it only applies to the right. What is most important is to prove your lying again by using an English dictionary. Which I have successfully accomplished. “the latter, very noble IF they put their money where their mouth is” I know of such a compassionate individual in public service, who’s public administration has zero corruption, and who’s coffers are full. Moreover, the health facilities offer some features that are ahead of anywhere else in the western hemisphere.
@TH
Apr 07th, 2018 - 08:56 pm - Link - Report abuse 0If I were you, I'd stick to your usual BS...it's what you do best.
“I know of such a compassionate individual in public service, who’s public administration has zero corruption, and who’s coffers are full. Moreover, the health facilities offer some features that are ahead of anywhere else in the western hemisphere”.
And might I ask ,Great Brain-less and Tooth-less Wonder, in what country would that be ? Brazil, Venezuela, Nigeria ? ah, of course, Cuba ....right ?
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 07th, 2018 - 09:03 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Brazil, you uninformed ignoramus.
@JB
Apr 07th, 2018 - 09:32 pm - Link - Report abuse +1It's funny, you both hate the corrupt elite, the big difference is that EM thinks Lula was fighting them, and you think he became one of them. But EM seems to believe the real power isn't held by the politicians, but I presume by whoever is rich enough to buy them, and buy the newspapers and TV stations too.
”as long as they aspire to it through taking advantage of opportunities (hopefully) offered by govt, providing better health/education, and not by expecting all their wishes to be attended overnight, through handouts. I think I've made it pretty clear here, that I don't mind paying taxes, if spent for the good of the population, instead of serving the corrupt politicians and those who get into bed with them. ”
Sounds reasonable to me.
RE Fascism and communism, have you heard of horseshoe theory? It basically says that the far right and far left, instead of being the most opposite from each other, are actually very similar. I'd say any group that has views far from the norm will share some similarities, but communism and fascism as practised were both very authoritarian, so they have that in common at least. Besides, it's perfectly true that concepts change over time, modern ideas of left and right don't always match the old ones, and are different in different countries today. For example, in Spain it is the right-wing party that makes a fuss over Gibraltar, while the left-wing one was more sympathetic, but in Argentina it is the opposite. So is nationalism a right or left wing idea?
Anyway, historically the fascists certainly saw the socialists and communists as rivals, not allies, and as I said, modern neo-Nazis see themselves as on the right.
I think the original question was whether the military government was fascist? I presume you'd say no, but there are some similarities.
@TH
I'll believe that when I see it, and from every angle under a microscope, too.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Apr 07th, 2018 - 09:39 pm - Link - Report abuse -1In Apucarana, I know a someone who went and worked on the municipal election there.
All residents can receive dental implants at no cost to themselves. The administration has a 90% popularity rating.
So read it and weep.
Read what and weep? You forgot your all important holy link. Besides, where does the money come from for free dental implants? Those things cost a fortune, I'm sure there are much more pressing health needs in Brazil that it could be better spent on.
Apr 07th, 2018 - 10:05 pm - Link - Report abuse 0The city has the highest percentage of implants per population in Brazil, lucky them.
Apr 07th, 2018 - 10:30 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Link, hypocrite.
Apr 07th, 2018 - 10:48 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I don’t have one nor am going to bother my source to satisfy you. As I and those lucky residents couldn’t care a less, so they will continue to enjoy their good governance, and keep their smiles. As its well known how poor are the dental services in the UK.
Apr 07th, 2018 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse -1Wow, that's a new low even for you. After all the times you've demanded links to prove things that were obvious or already proven, you refuse to give any evidence for this extremely implausible story. I don't believe a word of it, especially coming from a known liar and fantasist like you.
Apr 08th, 2018 - 12:04 am - Link - Report abuse 0DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Apr 08th, 2018 - 12:09 am - Link - Report abuse -1“I don't believe a word of it, especially coming from a known liar and fantasist like you”
If this was your known experience, then it is readily available for you to produce. Which you can’t because it never happened.
The program is so sustainable that it has been extended to none-residents in the immediate neighbourhood. Amazing what can achieved with a properly managed and honest administration.
Brits just grin and bear bad dentistry
“I can certainly confirm that the UK has a big problem. Wherever I end up living in the future, I would not entrust my dental health to a UK practice – whether NHS or private – ever again,” https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/expat-health/11770937/Brits-just-grin-and-bear-bad-dentistry.html
Oh so you can find a link for that, but not for the amazingly wonderful, perfect and superior Brazilian program? I wonder why not?*
Apr 08th, 2018 - 12:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0*Don't worry, I know why.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Apr 08th, 2018 - 12:46 am - Link - Report abuse -1I guess if I was so poorly served with dental services I can see why you’d feel more than a little resentful.
Brazil has some of the best dental advances in the world.
ENGLISH PEOPLE’S TEETH ARE AN “INTERNATIONAL DISGRACE” AND A “NATIONAL HEALTH DISASTER”, UK DENTISTS SAY
http://www.newsweek.com/english-peoples-teeth-are-international-disgrace-and-national-health-disaster-769635
Rotten British teeth are the laughing stock of the world, TV doctor says ...
http://www.newsweek.com/english-peoples-teeth-are-international-disgrace-and-national-health-disaster-769635
Britain's Bad Smiles Revealed
http://www.newsweek.com/english-peoples-teeth-are-international-disgrace-and-national-health-disaster-769635
This is a waste of time, you obviously have no evidence and no interest in an honest debate (surprise). As usual your posts are useless and irrelevant.
Apr 08th, 2018 - 01:19 am - Link - Report abuse 0DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Apr 08th, 2018 - 02:21 am - Link - Report abuse 0In North America twenty-five years ago you could have implants, but, the dentist would tell you they might last 15 years. Pioneered in Brazil, the latest techniques mean your ‘implants’ now should last the rest of your life.
Whereas in the UK large segments of the population had lost all their teeth by their mid to late twenties
Bullshit. In 2009 only 6% of the UK population had no teeth, and that includes everyone. In that year 11.8% of the population was aged over 70.
Apr 08th, 2018 - 09:49 am - Link - Report abuse 0You're nothing but a lying troll.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Apr 08th, 2018 - 10:13 am - Link - Report abuse 0“In 2009 only 6% of the UK population had no teeth” Then it begs the question why do the newspapers have such less than glowing headlines if what you say is true? Moreover, why not reveal that titbit to show they’ve got it wrong?
ENGLISH PEOPLE’S TEETH ARE AN “INTERNATIONAL DISGRACE” AND A “NATIONAL HEALTH DISASTER”, UK DENTISTS SAY
Rotten British teeth are the laughing stock of the world, TV doctor says
Britain's Bad Smiles Revealed
“You're nothing but a lying troll.” You just wish that were true, then at least I’d be on the same level as you and JB. Unfortunately, out of our many exchanges you’re unable to produce any evidence.
“AN ASSERTION IS A STATEMENT OFFERED AS A CONCLUSION WITHOUT SUPPORTING EVIDENCE. SINCE AN ARGUMENT IS DEFINED AS A LOGICAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PREMISE AND CONCLUSION, A SIMPLE ASSERTION IS NOT AN ARGUMENT.”
Ignoring the Burden of Proof http://learn.lexiconic.net/fallacies/index.htm
The stories in newspapers are designed to sell newspapers, so they exaggerate and over-dramatise everything. As for being on the same level as me and JB, don't waste your time dreaming. There're things growing in my fridge that are on a higher intellectual level than you.
Apr 08th, 2018 - 10:26 am - Link - Report abuse 0DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Apr 08th, 2018 - 10:51 am - Link - Report abuse 0“On a higher intellectual level than you” Then why is it you’re always beaten hands down? It’s duly noted your evasion, as I was clearly referring to you and JB's penchant for untruthfulness.
@DT:
Apr 08th, 2018 - 11:54 am - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “The stories in newspapers are designed to sell newspapers, so they exaggerate and over-dramatize everything”:
!00% TRUE!
I'd like to add even if you mind:
and THE SAME IS TRUE WHEN A POLITICIAN SAYS SOMETHING PUBLICALLY!
REF:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-e6WZy6vyq_I/UsHjN-uudXI/AAAAAAAACXk/fIjfre5-g1c/s1600/charge-dilma-mentira.jpg
@TH
Apr 08th, 2018 - 12:29 pm - Link - Report abuse -3There are all kinds of problems with dental care in the UK, but I am not interested in discussing it with a dishonest moron like you. The only thing I am interested in is evidence for your implausible claim, which you have indeed been evading. Find evidence or there is nothing more to say.
@ :o))
Unfortunately you are right. Outright lies are less common, but they *always* twist the truth to suit them.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Apr 08th, 2018 - 03:03 pm - Link - Report abuse 0In spite of claims to the contrary. Which if believed would make the UK providers of the the best dental care, par none.
Rotten state of children's teeth in England exposed in hospital data
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/31/rotten-state-childrens-teeth-england-under-10-hospital-treatment-tooth-decay
‘Dire’ child oral health statistics for England
“Thirty per cent of five-year olds in the most deprived areas of England have experienced tooth decay – the figure is 20% for the least deprived.”
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/31/rotten-state-childrens-teeth-england-under-10-hospital-treatment-tooth-decay
I love playing with idiots like you who driven by only their own animus
Apucarana’s wonderful free dental treatment, read it and weep.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/oct/31/rotten-state-childrens-teeth-england-under-10-hospital-treatment-tooth-decay
“The Center for Dental Specialties (CEO), of Apucarana, is a national reference in dental implants by the Unified Health System (SUS). The municipality, which started offering the service in 2013, has already performed 19,528 implants in 4,857 patients. Survey conducted with the DataSus portal points Apucarana as the municipality with the highest number of procedures performed in 2017 throughout Brazil.
The expansion of the offer of services for patients from other municipalities was one of the subjects discussed at the meeting of mayors of the entity, which is chaired by the mayor of Apucarana, Beto Preto. During the meeting, he reinforced the invitation for mayors and health secretaries to refer patients to the council. “Apucarana today is already the largest pole of implant services in the country's SUS,” said the mayor, who also announced the expansion of the CEO.”
@Hypocrite and Liar
Apr 08th, 2018 - 05:36 pm - Link - Report abuse -1You made an assertion and you are now spamming irrelevances to cover up the fact you have no evidence. You are simply trying to dodge the burden of proof.
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Apr 08th, 2018 - 06:16 pm - Link - Report abuse +1Ah that only one URL clog.
I love playing with idiots like you who driven by only their own animus
Apucarana’s wonderful free dental treatment, read it and weep.
“Apucarana tem maior índice de implantes dentários do SUS
O Centro de Especialidades Odontológicas (CEO), de Apucarana, é referência nacional em implantes dentários pelo Sistema Único de Saúde (SUS). O município, que começou a ofertar o serviço em 2013, já realizou 19.528 implantes em 4.857 pacientes. Levantamento feito junto ao portal DataSus aponta Apucarana como o município com maior número de procedimentos realizados em 2017 em todo Brasil. De janeiro a abril deste ano foram 2.901 implantes, o que corresponde a 42% dos procedimentos realizados em todo território nacional. …”
https://tnonline.uol.com.br/noticias/apucarana/45,421210,03,07,apucarana-tem-maior-in
@DT:
Apr 08th, 2018 - 07:38 pm - Link - Report abuse 0REF: “Outright lies are less common, but they *always* twist the truth to suit them”:
You refer to the most common “WHITE” lies; I assume.
REF:
https://sobrecomedia.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/charge_politica.jpg
@DT
Apr 09th, 2018 - 12:20 am - Link - Report abuse 0“It's funny, you both hate the corrupt elite, big difference that EM thinks Lula was fighting them, you think he became one of them”.
I have always said Lula's main quality was that of being corruptible. When elected, he knew he needed the support of the elite, both political and business...so negotiations started to make them palatable to each other ; to guarantee political support he brought a few parties into govt ‘n bribed them (”mensalão”, 2007); to avoid being impeached, he was forced to accept Temer’s PMDB (2010); to keep the business community happy, he used his influence (and financing from the BNDES) to direct large contracts (mainly PB’s) to his new 'pals' (Odebrecht, OAS, & others), so instead of fighting the 'elite', he joined them.
As to who holds the real power, IMO it's the politicians, 'cause they are the ones who decide what contractor gets what...after a while it just becomes an MO where both benefit.
Your horseshoe theory seems to explain 'my' understanding of the extremes. And I'd say nationalism does not necessarily have to be right, or left...seems to have more to do with 'pride' (and perhaps commercial protectionism) than ideology.
The Brazilian military, in this whole context, I'd place to the right of centre, but not 'facist', presuming the 'term' is acceptable here.
As TH “doesn’t want to bother his source” (WTF ?) on “who’s public administration has zero corruption, and who’s coffers are full”, I looked it up. While Apucarana (PR) does in fact have a pioneering Municipal dental service (SUS) by Bzln standards, and apparently works, what guarantee is there that there is no corruption in other areas ? and what the hell does that have to do with the fact that I was criticizing the 'champagne socialists' ? but let's not forget that Apucara is in PR (very different to Lula's NE) and is only one of roughly 5700 counties in Brazil, and that Mayor Carlos Preto is NOT from the PT...so what exactly is the idiot’s point ?
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 09th, 2018 - 01:35 am - Link - Report abuse 0“So instead of fighting the 'elite’” He built 18 universities more than another president. Like I’ve stated he would never have been convicted under a a first world legal system as any witness’s claims require corroboration.
“Nationalism does not necessarily have to be right” It does you idiot.
“What guarantee is there that there is no corruption in other areas ?” Because when the present administration took over they fired anyone that was corrupt, the city has prospered ever since.
“Mayor Carlos Preto is NOT from the PT...so what exactly is the idiot’s point ?” He is a multi millionaire and a doctor that enjoys public service for the betterment of the community you idiot.
@TH, aka the LIAR
Apr 09th, 2018 - 04:31 am - Link - Report abuse 0Let me tell you abt Lula's 18 universities : a BIG hoax.
If you want to stretch it, maybe 6, but really only 4. How did his miracle of multiplication (6 to 18) work ? by re-arranging existing institutions 'n re-naming them...most exist only on paper.
Just fyi, increase in nbr of matriculations in federal universities, fm 1995-2002 (FHC's 2 terms), was an average 6%/year. From 2003-2008 (6 Lula years), 3,2 %.
In FHC's 2nd term (1999-2002, 4 yrs) there were 158,000 new matriculations in the Federal universities...From 2003-2008 (6 Lula 6 years), there were only 76,000.
Now what DID increase during Lula's presidencies, was school evasion, because despite the new matriculations, the number of graduates dropped : in 2003 (year after FHC left) there were 84,341, 'n in 2008 (Lula's 6th year), 84,036. To get an idea how this worked,
take one of his great achievements: between 2006 'n 2009 (all Lula years) , the Federal University of the ABC (Lula's domaine) lost 42% of its students...
So much for Lula, the Educator. Not surprising really, considering he was very proud of being a semi-illiterate drop-out from primary school.
You say : Nationalism necessarily “has to be 'right' ”. Really ? Prove it. Or STFU.
Re Apucarana : “Because when the present administration took over they fired anyone that was corrupt, the city has prospered ever since.”.....you actually believe they rooted out everyone who was corrupt ? more likley, “they fired everyone they KNEW to be corrupt”....how stupid can you be ? In the same way, Lula was “honest” until they discovered he was a filthy crook...and Brazil prospered until the “mensalão” and the “Petrolão” corruption schemes were uncovered.
“Mayor Carlos Preto is a multi millionaire and a doctor that enjoys public service for the betterment of the community you idiot.”...No, YOU idiot ...so being a millionaire and a doctor make him incorruptible ? then what abt Paulo Maluf, engineer and multi millionaire ?
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 09th, 2018 - 11:53 am - Link - Report abuse 0“Lula’s governments introduced a series of measures to increase the number of people from Brazil’s badly funded public sector schools studying at universities. The University for Everyone programme, created by a 2005 law, provided scholarships at private universities. New federal universities were opened and admission procedures streamlined. …Life expectancy in Brazil increased by six years from 2000 to 2016, … Education improved”. h ttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/05/brazilians-still-hold-great-affection-for-lula-despite-corruption-conviction
“Built more universities and technical schools than any other Brazilian leader”
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2018-04-08-brazil-lulas-imprisonment-an-attack-on-the-working-class-globally/#.WstNMS-lmqE
“In 2009 he said … But isn't it a strange thing that I'm the president that built universities more than others?” https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2018-04-08-brazil-lulas-imprisonment-an-attack-on-the-working-class-globally/#.WstNMS-lmqE
“Nationalism necessarily “has to be 'right' … ” Already have. “Fascism…an authoritarian and NATIONALISTIC right-wing system of government and social organisation” British English Dictionary
“So being a millionaire and a doctor make him incorruptible” In this instance it apparently is so. As you have no evidence to contrary, it so confirms the fact. Please not everyone is dishonest just because you are.
@TH, the Liar, or just misinformed (deliberately) ?
Apr 09th, 2018 - 12:22 pm - Link - Report abuse 0That's right numbnuts, keep on reading your left-wing news. Even if, repeat EVEN IF Lula had BUILT 18 new Federal Universities, which we all know he didn't, the numbers that count are the number of graduates per year....not the number of buildings ...many of which don't even exist. Stop spouting your BS, picking out (extremely) isolated cases and then trying to generalize. Ah, I get it, your brain is only big enough to entertain one small subject at a time....
Am not saying Carlos Preto IS corrupt, I'm just questioning your blind conviction that there in no corruption in any of the county departments....seems a pretty broad statement, considering that you REALLY don't know, but would like to believe so.....but of course, everyone is honest until they aren't....
As to 'nationalism', keep on avoiding the truth...because that, everyone knows, makes you happy.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 09th, 2018 - 12:59 pm - Link - Report abuse 0So what have posted other than your unsupported diatribe .
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Christopher Hitchens
So as you have failed to meet your BoP kit is sufficient for me to say Nada, Nada BS.
“As to 'nationalism” Already refuted via the dictionary definition posted.
@JB
Apr 09th, 2018 - 08:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“When elected, he knew he needed the support of the elite, both political and business...”
It makes sense, unfortunately. As a new president, much easier to try and work within the system, but that means joining the corrupt organisation. And the weaker the PT's own position the more need to buy support from other parties, with favours or literally.
How hard would it be for any president to make real changes, knowing that most of the existing congressmen, senators, and judges (and probably businessmen?) would fight them out of self interest?
And obviously the politicians have power, but I imagine so do the rich business owners who pay them, and the media owners who can shape their public image. I don't think there's a hive mind, but they use their influence for their own benefit, not the country's.
I always thought nationalism was a right-wing thing, until I learned more about Latin America. But I don't really understand why it's different there. In Britain it's bound up with tradition and
not so much economic factors, in South America it seems to be more about seeing themselves as victims of other countries - that's a bad way to explain it, but I can't think of a better one.
Don't know why TH didn't just give that link in the first place instead of prevaricating for hours. Can Brazilians really get free dental implants from the public health system? Seems an odd choice in a country that is still concerned with ending hunger.
I suppose he was trying to say that some people really do put their money where their mouth is, if this Preto guy is a multi-millionaire and trying to help people. What party is he from if not the PT?
DemonTree the slavish follower aka The Appendage
Apr 09th, 2018 - 08:54 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“Oh so you can find a link for that, but not for the amazingly wonderful, perfect and superior Brazilian program? I wonder why not?*
*Don't worry, I know why.”
How do you manage to either walk or talk with so much foot in your mouth?
@DT:
Apr 10th, 2018 - 10:08 am - Link - Report abuse 0“When elected, he knew he needed the support of the elite, both political and business...”
Pl. don't get carried away by what they say or declare to the public. PRIVATELY; the corrupt - politicians & the entrepreneurs - THEY [2 or more politicians &/or a politician & an entrepreneur] are the accomplices in various crimes and are the two sides of the SAME coin.
AND TO MAKE IT WORSE:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AzacN-SQXsI/VVySuo9WTHI/AAAAAAAAAys/2DoeWlV4SDE/s1600/charge-lava-rapido.jpg
TWIMC...
Apr 10th, 2018 - 05:40 pm - Link - Report abuse +1+170,000 signatures in less han 12 hours...
Feel free to sign...;-)
https://www.change.org/p/premio-nobel-de-la-paz-para-lula-da-silva-prêmio-nobel-da-paz-a-lula-da-silva-nobel-peace-prize-to-lula-da-silva-friedensnobelpreis-an-lula-da-silva-premio-nobel-per-la-pace-a-lula-da-silva
@DT
Apr 10th, 2018 - 09:01 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Congress is so corrupt, and with 32 parties, fragmenting the nation’s interests, it becomes even harder to get anything approved unless payouts are made. With the public contracts being in the hands of politicians, and the business community hungry to get them, I still maintain that the ‘first steps’ towards bribing, are made by the politicians, looking for the highest bidder (as in an auction) instead of by the companies who pay them.
Today, all companies that want to operate here, know the rules of the game, but if they weren’t obliged to, why would they pay bribes ?
Re dental care, or public health, the question is simple : the counties are who run the SUS, and it is their (legal) obligation to provide decent health services to the population, including dental care…but, the great majority of counties are so badly administered (stealing, waste, incompetence), that few actually follow what is stipulated in the Law…SC, PR and RS (3 southern-most states) are the most developed socially (due to where most of the European immigrants settled in the late 19th century) so it’s only natural that there these services be the best…but to extend that apparent honesty/efficiency to the whole administration, is stretching it…Don’t know, but an interesting question would be, how many counties (out of the approximate 5700 have decent health services, and where are the counties mainly located ? Would even risk saying that none of the counties are governed by 'petistas'...
Again when I was talking about people ‘putting their mouth where there money is, I was clearly referring to ‘champagne socialists’ - (rich, private citizens who preach socialism, and do nothing) - while politicians that do, are doing no more than their sworn duty.
@JB
Apr 10th, 2018 - 11:11 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“if they weren’t obliged to, why would they pay bribes ?”
If a better company would win the contract otherwise, or if they wanted to inflate the price and thus their profits, or if they want to influence the laws in their favour or have the authorities turn a blind eye when they break them. Isn't it common for big companies to donate to both sides in an election to make sure they will have an influence on the government, and that's not even illegal.
The impetus can come from either side, but it certainly seems it would be hard for any one party to clean up Congress.
RE the 'champagne socialists', presumably not everyone wants to go into politics, so what can they do to help?
As for the health care, seems incredible that Apucarana could be so much better than the other counties just by being run well. What are the counties in SP like? Do they have good health services?
@DT
Apr 11th, 2018 - 06:33 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Sent the videos again, and checked before 'sending' that all were different...but MP screwed up, again. Anyway, here's only the 3rd one, where Lula inadvertently says the triplex IS his.
https://youtu.be/uBmfjC5w8pc
Today it's hard to distinguish what came first, the chicken or the egg....but going back to the first bribe - IF that were possible - I think you'd see the politician holding a fat contract in his hand, telling the contractors that whoever pays the highest bribe, will get the contract. It comes down to 'who' has to something to sell (public contracts) and 'who' wants to buy it....May have mentioned it before, but just fyi if I didn't, the “Lavajato” investigation started when the owner of a small company applied for a PB contract...he was finally called up, and negotiations started...when the actual project had been discussed and almost ready to sign, he was told that he would have to include an overprice, in order to pay off 'people higher up'...this scared him, so he went to the Feds who instructed him to keep on negotiating (the bribe) and to wear a wire....the result we all know, one thing led to another until the 'lavajato' became the investigation of the biggest corruption scandal Brazil's ever known - until now.
After the MO is already understood by both sides, the politicians know that the companies expect them to demand bribes, and the companies go into negotiations knowing what's expected of them...no bribe, no deal.
The 'champagne socialists' I'm referring to here in Brazil, are usually leftist intelectuals, but mainly popular TV artists , and celebrity socialites etc, those who have public exposure but very rarely become active in politics, and are content to sit behind the lines while instigating the 'people' with their socialist discourse...and enjoying the benefits of capitalism.
A contradiction, one that usually only prospers in a country where people can't see through the falseness of it.
Well, I watched it, and he could have been saying what they claimed... sounded more like 'triprekis' to me. Of course I don't know the context, but it doesn't seem to have convinced any of his followers.
Apr 12th, 2018 - 10:43 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I doubt there was any one first bride, it must have happened freshly many times, so who knows what came first. And no, I hadn't heard how the Lavajato started. Why is it called that anyway? In 'O Mecanismo', the guy arranging all the brides had his office over a car wash and that's where the name came from.
I noticed that several companies in Europe have got in trouble for paying bribes due to the investigations in Brazil, apparently they are not above doing that when required, either.
Re Champagne Socialists, sounds like you are referring to the sort of celebrities who have nothing better to do and just want to look good for the fans. Can't expect much out of them, and I think it may be all countries where people can't see the contradiction between words and deeds.
Greenwald: Brazil’s Right Jailed Lula Because They Could Not Defeat Him at the Polls
Apr 13th, 2018 - 05:08 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“The one thing he has been convicted of is this tiny little case that everybody always considered extremely dubious, that has been filled with judicial irregularities, that clearly is the byproduct of this judicial obsession on the part of Sérgio Moro, the head judge of the corruption investigations, to put Lula in prison. It became a personal fixation on his part.
And the evidence that was used to convict him — and the charge was that Lula received a triplex apartment and renovations from a construction company in order to get contracts from Petrobras — the evidence is basically nonexistent that Lula was even the owner of that apartment or that, as Judge Moro admitted, the renovations were done in connection with getting contracts from Petrobras.
So, it’s all kinds of reasons to suspect that what’s really going on is politically motivated, especially when you consider the fact that there are huge numbers of extremely powerful politicians on the right — including the president of this country who was installed; Dilma’s 2014 opponent Aécio Neves; the governor of São Paulo, who Lula defeated in 2006, Geraldo Alckmin, who’s running for president again this year — who are extremely corrupt, among the most corrupt politicians in all of Latin America, who not only remain out of prison and free, but still in power.
It really creates this very strong appearance that, whatever else you think of Lula and whether he’s actually corrupt, this is not an act of justice, this is an act of political vengeance and a political abuse of the law to remove political enemies and destroy a political party that they’ve not been able to defeat at the ballot box.”
http://brazzil.com/greenwald-brazils-right-jailed-lula-because-they-could-not-defeat-him-at-the-polls/
@DT
Apr 13th, 2018 - 09:09 pm - Link - Report abuse 0What Lula's ranting about was the fact that apparently the prosecutors weren't giving the same attention to Geddel Vieira Lima's apartment in Bahia, as they had to his “triprekis”.
(few months ago Feds found the equivalent to US$ 16 million (cash) stuffed into 7 suitcases, which he couldn't explain the origin of...reason why he's in prison...as well...and without even having been convicted in a lower court....so what the hell is Lula complaining about ?)
The “lavajato”, meaning 'carwash', has that name because the corrupt official insisted on meeting the owner of the company at one.
OK, haven't seen the Netflicks series, but sounds pretty accurate with police reports.
Yeah, you're right about the celebrities, just wanting to identify with the social trends.
Now we know what the middle initial in Terry's name is....Could well be “Liar”, but I think it's really “Lula”.
@Terry “Lula” Hill
“It became a personal fixation on his part.”...........................PROVE IT.
“as Judge Moro admitted, the renovations were done in connection with getting contracts from Petrobras”................“admitted” is hardly the right word to describe it, LulaLiar....Don't try to make it sound like Moro was coming from a position of weakness, and was conceding that it wasn't what it looked like....Judge Moro “stated”, with every single syllable, that the 'renovations' WERE, along with the apartment, a gift from OAS, in exchange for very “profitable” contracts from PB.
The fact that the apartment was not YET in Lula's name, or would remain in OAS's (to hide the asset) is neither here nor there, as all the evidence proves beyond any doubt.
“Geraldo Alckmin, who’s running for president again this year — who are extremely corrupt,”.
Irresponsible statement. First, YOU can't PROVE it. Second, despite being mentioned in a witness's plea-bargain, Alckmin has not been formally accused of anything.. If/when he is, and if found guilty, may he rot in jail with Lula.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 13th, 2018 - 09:57 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“It became a personal fixation on his part.”...........................PROVE IT. … LulaLiar....Don't try to make it sound like Moro ...”
Psst I hate to tell you but these are the words of Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Glenn Greenwald. So they are posted as a point of information so there is requirement for me to prove anything. So we have the opinion of an award winning journalist versus yours, no contest.
@JB
Apr 13th, 2018 - 11:14 pm - Link - Report abuse +1“despite being mentioned in a witness's plea-bargain, Alckmin has not been formally accused of anything.”
Hasn't he? I found this story about him on the BBC, it seems the Lava Jato team are very keen to investigate him, but unlike Lula, Alckmin still has friends in high places:
http://www.bbc.com/portuguese/brasil-43738122
I think it says they sent his case to the electoral court; is this a way to slow it down (he only needs 6 months), or make the consequences less serious? Unlike Enrique, I'm not convinced Lula is innocent, but still the powerful have a lot of influence on who gets thrown to Moro for a speedy trial and whose case is helpfully delayed (though apparently not even they can explain away 7 suitcases full of cash :) ).
I also suspect the mainstream media in Brazil (Globo etc), are not giving the other corruption investigations nearly as much exposure as Lula's, because they don't want ordinary people like you to start hating the politicians *they* support. They don't need to lie, it's just that one case gets giant headlines and endless speculation, while others are relegated to a small paragraph in the corner.
@Terence Lulla Hill,
Apr 14th, 2018 - 06:24 pm - Link - Report abuse 0I knew it. Typical of an idiot. Fact is, YOU can't prove ANYthing. Neither can your hero GG, only expressing his 'opinion'...or did GG by any chance, get a personal interview with Moro, where the latter confided his innermost thoughts ?
Terence Lulla Hill, amazing how easily you are influenced....sign of a weak mind.
@DT
Alckmin is said to have received 'undeclared' (therefore illegal) campaign donations in 2010 'n 2014, which I quite believe. I do NOT think it's right, but the fact is that just about every politician in Brazil can (and might) be accused of the same crime. Saying this, because here it's not considered a crime by any politician, or even by a part of the population. In order to understand why these undeclared donations are a headache, you need to understand that while many times they are actually all used up during/ for the campaign effort, many times the 'remains' go into the candidate's pocket.
Each candidate declares to the electoral court what he receives officially (as per, for example, same as declared by Marcelo Odebrecht ), but omits what's received under the counter....the STF is trying to separate the official from the under-the-counter donations (disclosed 'n detailed during plea-bargains) in order to define the crime, thus permitting prosecution, or not.
All 'successful' politicians (in that they are constantly elected) have friends in high-places...even Lula does - and in the Supreme Court : Tofolli, Lewandowski, Gilmar Mendes and Marco Aurelio Mello....and they may also sway to either side, depending which way the (political) wind is blowing.
Being a supposed 'electoral' crime, committed by a State Governor, it HAS to be judged by the State's electoral court...Depending on the supposed crimes of each of the 5 governors, the cases will be referred to the respective court, Electoral or Criminal.
Globo has been relatively impartial, but obviously, the bigger the crime, the bigger the coverage.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 14th, 2018 - 06:53 pm - Link - Report abuse 0“only expressing his 'opinion’” versus yours, no contest.
“how easily you are influenced....sign of a weak mind.” It would be if I behaved like you.
@Terence Lulla Hill
Apr 14th, 2018 - 10:55 pm - Link - Report abuse 0At least be original.
Jack Bauer aka Proof-less and Truth-less
Apr 14th, 2018 - 11:02 pm - Link - Report abuse 0Your so predictable most of my replies are written prior to your posting.
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